Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to vicarious insights, the podcast where we dive into the world of disabilities, learning from experts, providers, participants and their families. I'm your host, Jace. Today we have a special guest with us, James, from fresh perspectives, which is a small business consultancy. James, how would you explain what this is?
[00:00:16] Speaker B: I started my own business probably only a couple of weeks ago, to be honest, so worked in the disability sector hands on for around about three years or so. Realized there's more that I can do in terms of the skill set that I've got, and I'm really good at pretty quickly picking up things with businesses. It seemed like a natural progression for me to kind of step out and do my own thing. After working in the sector hands on for three years, I've got the opportunity now to support more providers, more companies, and ultimately for me, I suppose the goal is similar to yourself. I want to support as many clients as I can, participants as they're deemed by the NDIS to get the outcomes that they're after to improve their lifestyle.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: So you started off working directly with clients?
[00:00:53] Speaker B: My background, I moved to Australia in 2007 as a professional athlete. I spent some time in retail when the GFC hit, ended up moving back into sport and rec and then bounced around a few different venues in Queensland. Yep, I actually ended up taking a role in South Australia and then moved back to Queensland to work for bounce, the Trampoline parks. So they hadn't had the initial success that they were hoping for with the venue. I essentially went in and the goal was, from a community engagement perspective, try and turn the venue around. One of the things that we looked to do was who was available to use the venue during the day because that's when it was really quiet. We reached out to school groups, daycares, a few disability providers and the NDIs on the Gold coast kind of, I believe at the time, really sort of only just started to crack. We had some visits from Gold Coast Rec and sport anglicare. There were a few other groups to be partnered with. The inspiration behind it for myself and for the team was Emma. Emma was my personal ground zero and the entry path to working in the disability sector. Emma was from memory, I think she was 24. She had the gross motor skills of around about 17 year old mental of around about a four year old. But she was living in a retirement home. The support workers that she had, the typically just get her and go to a park. I suppose what we would consider to be babysitting, right. There was no engagement or development of skills and competition, things that she could do, and no one either. Like, if she said, no, no, no, it was. Yeah, it wasn't a good story, and I remember it being in the news at the time as well. The issue with participants, again, with disabilities, being in aged care homes and not having their own access to suitable home provisions. A friend of mine was working for FSG, the disability care provider. She ended up bringing Emma in. She looked after Emma two days a week. We could just see the difference that it made. Cause there was this just enormous sense of freedom that Emma had in a trampoline park where she would never have been before, really, from Emma's visit and Emma's, you know, what you could see as her experience and the fact that her gross motor skills improved, ability to communicate with the other staff improved, she became more social. She was speaking to other clients that were venue at the time. As it developed, you know, other disability groups would come through at the same time. And she developed, you know, a friendship along with those groups as well. And I genuinely have had Emma in my mind as a bit of a project filter, you know, are we doing the right things? Are we actually looking at this the right way in terms of the disability sector and the provisions? The sector, on the whole, wasn't supporting every client in the way that they should do. It probably isn't now, in all truthfulness, and that's probably an unattainable target, but I realized there was something that I, as an individual, could do with my teams that were working for me from that location. We formed out, worked at Gold Coast Gymnastics club, which wouldn't typically fall in the disability space. But even then, I tried to get some stuff happening with the Sporting Wheelers association because I didn't see why clients that were in wheelchairs couldn't engage in gymnastics and from the rings and that sort of thing as well. So then entered the disability sector, I would say towards the back end of it, I think it was 2021, 2022. I think I entered disability sector with.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Johnny H. What you're doing now is you sort of work directly inside somebody else's small business, help to work out what can be improved pain points and what staff are really saying about the boss. Is it the juicy stuff?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah. So it's kind of like, yeah, I suppose if I have to describe it, it's like undercover boss, but I'm not really undercover because everyone knows who I am and I'm not the boss. I quickly get to kind of scrape across the business, work out. Yeah. Not necessarily just even the pain points, right. But the things that the business does really well, that it probably takes for granted at that point so it can double down and do more of it because it does it really well and it's probably trying to take on another market or another sector. But in truth, if it put that energy into what it does really well and honed it down, they probably get, you know, two or three times the success. It's easy to spread too thin as well. Right. That's where I'm at at the moment, keen to keep in the disability space and sector as well, because I think the reform that's coming through, which is consistent, which is simultaneously a really good thing and a really bad thing. I talk about the disability space potentially being a bit recalling as well. It's nice to have found a space that I feel like the work that I do doesn't just contribute to the organization that I'm working for, and it doesn't necessarily just contribute to the staff that are working for me, but it's also got that ultimate end user that actually needs the supports that we can provide. You deliver the ultimate service and product. It's not just a win win, it's a win win win win.
Right. Like the economy benefits from the NDIS and the social and community engagement from the participants engagement and welfare of the staff because they feel like they've got a purpose and they're value driven and they're getting things that they want from it holistically. It's a really nice sector working, so.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: You can take a nice company and help them to improve and therefore extend their reach. And then from there, go on and be able to help more clients, participants, people that need the help. So by helping a business, a small business, I'd like to believe that a lot of small businesses definitely lead with their heart and they come and they're like, I'm here to care. I'm really good at this, but maybe I feel this only because of who I've met. A lot of these people may be really good at what they do face to face and looking after the individual, but need a little bit more help behind the scenes with growing the business and extending out. Is that.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really good observation. Right. We're all really good at different things. I think that's the benefit that organizations have when they scale. So when they get to a certain size or they're bigger, larger, not for profits, you end up with one of the most critical things is diversity. So diversity within the disability sector, we consider it something that we talk about all the time. Ability, diversity, racial diversity. The true winning factor is actually diversity of thought. So there's a lot of research out there in terms of how do you construct a team that's going to win? And the truth is that it's not birds of a feather flock together. Right? Like minds think alike, you'd think that that's the way that you do it, but the truth is it isn't. The way that you build a team that can be other teams is by creating, not necessarily a team with friction in amongst it. That takes good leadership and good management, but it's that diversity of thought. I understand what you're seeing, but this is what I see. And having the opportunity and the framework that you can essentially talk through that difference so that you get the outcome that you're after in the long run, that's the killer. And it's hard for small organizations to get that. It's me, myself and my thoughts. Commonly it's the husband that's running the organization, doing the supports, and they might offload to the partner and speak to the partner in the evening, but the partner's not in the industry or in the business to really fully understand what's going on. They're partners. Right. So you share them, but you're not going to share to the same extent. You're already probably on the same page, otherwise you wouldn't be partners. Right.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: That's the bird of the feather. But then I've got that different thing during the day. She's off managing another company and he's off managing this one is they've got some ideas that are same, but they are dealing with a different cattle of.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I actually find it quite interesting whenever there's an update of the NDIS reform, typically, and you go through and you read it, at the moment it seems to be that there's a lot of negative commentary around reviews and feedbacks, typically different perspectives within that negative feedback. If you were the NDIS and you were looking at that feedback, you'd probably be able to find that through those 30 different opinions. There probably would be at least one common vein that you'd be able to latch onto to then be able to implement that reform. And if you think about the opposite of that within a business, you end up with different thoughts. But between those thoughts, that generally is a level of commonality or fallback. Doctor Juliet Burke, I would say, led that diversity field. There's a really nice TEDx Brisbane event quite a few years ago. I was very fortunate to attend that, and it certainly changed the way that I manage and lead my teams. In terms of what you would originally consider differences of opinion, you don't let them fester. You kind of point out the fact that you actually need those to be able to move on and grow.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah, funnily enough, that's literally why I'm doing the podcast, because I'm a one man band at the moment. Where am I going to get more insight from outside what I do? I need the insights that you have. I need the insights that somebody else has. So something that I can learn from other people's what they're doing, what they've done, how they've built, why they've built, can potentially help me. I'm here picking people's brains. These are amazing fish for sharing your knowledge, which is great, just the things that you've been saying there. My brain's going, I'm going to have to have a look at a Ted talk, too.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it's honestly, it's a really good one. It's probably your top five favorites or whatever. There's. It's definitely one of mine. What I'd also suggest is you can go hunting for people to get that diversity that you think essentially, I think there's six characteristics of an individual. If I said to you, Jay, so your business, you're going to take on an extra staff member, generally one of seven ways that your brain would think, well, how does it impact the people? It's the outcome, finances, risk, because that's also really rare. Imagine if we were taking on a new venue. What's the thing that you would think about out of these seven categories? And what you want is a spread of those seven categories. Then you get that diversity of thought. I might take on another staff member, oh, it's going to be really good because I know someone, so I've got the people covered and the outcome would be that I'd get more clients. You might not be thinking about the risk component of doing that. So you find someone that's risk conversational. So when you say that to them, they go, oh, geez, have you thought about this though? And it's not because they've don't think you should do it, it's just because that's where their brain goes. And you'll go, oh, yeah, I have actually. I've thought about this, this, this and this and this, and you'll win them over. It's actually just bringing those things to life as an owner to then feel that you can move forward comfortably. With your plan.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Just. It's a different game of chess. It's still chess, but they play chess from their perspective, their way, 100%.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: We all see the world through our own lens, and it's shaped by the experiences that we've got that have got us till this point in time. So I'm kind of less, in a way that my life generally on a very grand scale has actually got me to this point, because it enables me to see certain things that other people don't or affirm the things that they do. No one's actually ever traveled the same path to get to the destination that they're at. It's by looking at that that you can then eliminate the group. Think, we've got a parliamentary system, so there's one bunch of people that think one thing, and another bunch of people think another thing, and nothing in the middle. Probably a pretty black and white example of what not to be.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Fair enough.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Fair enough.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: So, yes, you don't want the two opposing sides going. We can't come to an agreement. We want people. Here's your input. Here's your input.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: And there's balance within that as well. There's lots of leadership theory. I'm, like, fully nerd out on this. So there's a leadership theory that's called trait based leadership, which is essentially a homage to leaders are born, not made, born with certain personality traits, and those personality traits come out. And if you compared Barack Obama to Winston Churchill, two very extreme comparisons, they're almost at very opposite ends of this spectrum. Churchill was very individualized. I've got a thing in my head. We're going to crack on and do it. And there's examples where he was chancellor, the exchequer, I think his role was. There was a building that was on fire in London, London hijackers or robbers that were in it. He ordered the fire crews to stand down and let the building burn down. Some would say it was to say the firefighters. The others set an example. Sounds really nasty, right? But then, actually, if you take that approach to the second World War, that's why the allied forces won. Right. Opposites. End of the spectrum, you've got Barack Obama. So Barack Obama was a very democratic leader. Apparently, he wouldn't make a decision without everyone else's voice in the room. Some of the feedback around his leadership style was that it was quite hard to make a decision because he would avoid making decisions where he didn't feel like he had everyone agreeing into the same thing. So two very different extremes. And another theory that you can throw over the top of that contingency leadership theory, which basically says that it's around the relationship between the leader, essentially their followers and situation. And it's that triangle that then determines what the best approach is. I'm just, what does this mean?
What is this? The thing is, it's. And this is all sort of fresh in my head, right, because I've just, I've just finished uni and I genuinely love this stuff. The takeaway for small business owners is what? Out for your blind spots, things that you sort of know that they're there, but you might just kind of ignore them. Housework stuff, bookkeeping, that's probably something, right, that most people would avoid because they're not necessarily pumped about doing it. So we leave it and avoid it, and then it creates issues down the track. So watch out for blind spot type things and then try and fill the gap. Find out the things that you don't know. Because invariably they always start right with I don't know, the things that I don't know. What you're doing with the podcast is a great example of that, because the more people that you speak to, the more times that you'll go, I hadn't even thought about that. Either realize that you need a bit of a plan for it, or actually, that doesn't really impact me because I do this, this, this and rationalize it and move on.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: The more heads are better than one.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: It's 100% the irony there, mate. Going back to Doctor Judy s work, I think that was the title of our book. It was actually. Which two heads are better than one? Highly recommend it to people.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: You've just come out of university. What were you studying?
[00:12:55] Speaker B: It was my second MBA. The first one I did was generalized and I graduated in 2017. I was talking to one of the lecturers and they pointed out that I actually. Did you realize that if you did some extra modules, you could actually obtain a second MBA specialising in that subject? So I was like, oh, might actually kind of work because I felt like I was getting a bit sticky with where I was at and I hadn't consciously learned something or stretched myself for a little while. The second one, I've specialized in human resources, which has always been a bit of a passion and a bit of a calling for myself. I'd like to think that on the leadership stuff, I bring that to life in, in workplaces for the staff that work for me.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: You've just completed research and I think this is so, this is specific to the disability sector.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
My capstone the final projects that I did for the course basically concluded with some research. Look through the leadership lens within the disability space to see if there are any gaps. I decided to do mine on staff engagement levels within the disability sector. But specifically looking at things through the lens of leadership, what can the leaders within the disability sector do to improve staff engagement? And then I suppose with that, I'll just put in kind of brackets at the end of it, retention, because there's a recognized retention issue within the disability sector across all of Australia, non discriminatory in terms of how much it cuts through. So there was one of the, one of the reports that I actually used for the data that basically says the churn within the disability sector, as in the people that are leaving the sector not returning, is three times higher than any other sector that exists in Australia. From a participant at the NDIS, through my lens, looking at the sector, there's more that we need to do, because if we're churning staff and their staff that care as well. So disability sector is more of a calling than it is a career and a pathway. Right. It's something that we're always inspired and drawn to work in. We're doing something wrong.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: The critical thing from my perspective that I look at with the way the sector is at the moment is around the sustainability of it. And typically it would go back to, say, the finances of the sector. Right. In terms of how sustainable is it? Because when Bill shortens on the tv, talk about how many billions of dollars the NDIS is and we're doing all this good stuff, the next news article that comes on is about the fraud team that are there on. We've called this many people and we've saved the NDI this much money. But the truth is that it's workforce driven program. Without the workforce, there is no product or service to offer. It's really around making sure that the workforce, those frontline workers, are actually getting the sustenance essentially that they need to be able to move on. And you can liken this to other things that you'll hear in the news, because you'll hear about aged care workers not necessarily getting the pay and recognition that they need in the marketplace. The thing that often pops up not at the same time, but around that invariably will be the childcare workers. So the childcare industry is generally the same. So we all operate under government awards and the shads awards. Typically you don't hear about disability workers not getting paid enough because it's more of a calling, I would suggest, than those other sectors. But there's something I personally think that's a bit deeper on another level where it comes to working with disciplines with disabilities.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just making. You're making myself reflect there a little bit and I'm going to wear that. I'm like, yes, it's a call.
[00:15:54] Speaker B: I think it is. When I was. When I was over in London, worked in sport and rec, I did triathlon, actually, and it was a hobby. And then it became not really a career, but a job, I suppose, that I did for years. I got to travel on race and that sort of thing. There was a big draw off for the dick and Ricky Hoyt. So if you. Again, if you don't know the dick and Ricky Hoyt story, you have to go online and have a look at that. Rick had cerebral palsy. He was the first person with a disability to finish an Ironman. And he was basically dragged around the swim, pushed on the bike, wheelchair for the run, and it was his dad that pushed him whole way. Incredible story. And now, from an inspirational standpoint, again, within the triathlon world is Chris Nikit. He was the first person with down syndrome to finish the Ironman world championship 18 months ago. Even in that sports world, I was always drawn to their stories. I'd be in the professional field, but looking at the age group as kind of inspiration. Right. To carry on. I didn't really get the calling until I met Emma, though. When I actually entered the industry for the first time with Johnny H, I was like, yeah, okay, this is it. This is really in alignment with my personal values. I was able to support the staff in their personal values and their delivery of just awesome experiences to the clients. And the clients reap the benefits of what it was that we were trying to do.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Puzzle pieces were mentally fitting together there for you.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's about the triangle, right? It's about sustainability of things. So there's the staff and the clients and the business itself. All three get ticked off.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: I like that. That's. That's pretty much. I guess the motto of my business got to be win, win, win. If it's a win for my client, because otherwise, why us? Am I there for me? And there's got to be another win there involved. Whether it's for their family, another business, or whatever it is, if you get the three wins, then that means something's moving, right? If you can get more than that.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's it. And I think there being lots of people entering the sector from a sustainability standpoint, lots of people entering the sector doesn't necessarily mean it's an incredibly sustainable platform though, because if you think about it through the client side, it's kind of really hard, right. To know where to go because there's so many people and so many options. It's a really good thing, right. At the NDIs where 100% choice and control. This is one of the reasons that they want to try and put a. That reform into place. Right. Because how do you tell the difference between credible and not credible given prices either around how much the NDIS costs versus how much, you know, crooks are robbing it. You go through that registration process and essentially it becomes like a retailer type scenario.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Ticked off the checks and balances so you're at least your minimum standard.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Is this what that is? Who knows? Right. And again, really interesting as I understand it when I last read it, which has been a couple of weeks to be honest, you know, tiered level of registrations are not now, I don't believe for capital providers they're not necessarily looking at registrations, registration for those. It's more the service providers with multiple tiers to handle different, varying levels of clients. So you'll have to be highly registered if you've got a very high needs client, for instance, which kind of makes sense because you have more boxes to tick in terms of the credibility that you've got for your staff and the processes. Whereas you and I both know that there are clients that are very high functioning that actually just need a little bit of guidance and support in order for them to get the outcomes that they need for their funding. Lots of small people popping up, but how long will they stay for? There's a lot of churn in the sector. I was really fortunate with Johnny H. Kind of got a footprint in three different parts of the country and there were three completely different NDIS experiences across those three regions as well. So it's like a national program that operates with a very micro regional level in terms of what's available to the clients in that area or pocket.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: So what are you noticing between you said Sydney and Canberra and the Gold coast?
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so we were set up in western Sydney. Canberra was the other location. Canberra's got a college system. School finishes at year ten and then you go to a college in year eleven and twelve. But the college could be within the school but it's still different. So you can drop out of school when you get to year ten and move into, you know, a TAFE college or other pathway. Disability support can typically commence in year eleven. Quite commonly in Canberra, whereas in other states it's kind of a bit harder to leave school. The New South Wales education system has a really nice vocational support network that exists across its regions. Basically job is to provide and find pathways for students that might not necessarily fall into the standard educational pathways. Education Queensland have really only recently launched that with a program that they're called the Aspire program whose basically job it is to look after the year 13. So it's like an open access that anyone can kind of tap into for support for. You know, I'm struggling to settle in at university right through to I don't know what Tafe course to do versus I'm not doing anything. Can you help point me in the right direction? Even within the education system completely different. Which then creates young adults that are prepared very differently, particularly if they've got a disability for life post school and that new normal. And that's where I spent the most of my time, Johnny H. Because I was speaking to the parents and the clients that were essentially either recently leaving school or looking to leave school and that's where we were finding that our products and services kind of dovetailed really well to the education system. Within the NDIS demographic. Within each of those three areas it's very different. A lot more small local providers on the Gold Coast, Sydney, Canberra, typically larger organizations, NDIS operators on the Gold coast you've got you know, one or two staff and a handful of clients and we do this one thing and it's really cool. And there are obviously exceptions and outliers to that Gold coast recon sport which I know runs very similar to yourself, very similar to Johnny H. And they're enormous, you know, and an amazing.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Yes, I'm as good as wreck and sport. Thanks.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: I think that's, that's the thing to consider right. Is what defines amazing. It's not for you or I to define right. It's about appliance.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah, true.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: And critically bigger in the disability sector isn't always better. Johnny H specialized in clients with low to moderate intellectual disabilities. You talk about people that are socially awkward but then we would end up with 60 awkward people at a Christmas event so they can't be that awkward.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: And then. Right. So it's not actually about bigger necessarily being better. It's actually about I think people finding their people. But some people just aren't going to want lots of people.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: So that's where the small group thing comes off and then there's other people that would actually just, you know, I would much rather just have a support worker to go and do my stuff. You know, I've got more psychosocial issues. I need to step through that. So actually, me having a one on one support worker with someone that I know really well, that might have their own ABN and engagement me through somewhere else and it fits around their other life and all that sort of stuff. Again, that sort of proper microbrewery NDIS operator works perfectly. And ultimately it's really around what people have got used to. The NDIS is newer on the Gold coast than it is in those other areas of the country. And that's potentially a reason why the marketplace, if you will, is as constructed the way that it is on the Gold coast. It's different because it's a different lifespan of operation. And I think crystal ball time, I would suggest that there'd be some sort of a consolidation. I think that's going to come through over the next couple of years.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: So let a few of the little guys decide to get bigger and expand and hopefully still leave some of that smaller thing for that niche.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Need that.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think you're right. Yeah. So if you think about all the things that you need as a business in terms of your overheads, you talk about venue, marketing, advertising, staff in HR, payroll, finance, risk, insurance, insurance. Insurance wouldn't be eight times as big because you're eight times the size. So there's those economies of scale that you get from being that big, but not necessarily big, but you don't necessarily even need to lose focus. You know, there's ways within a business of doing that as well. So, yeah, I think you'll find that there'll be an amalgamation, I would suggest, of some of the, some of the smaller providers because there's benefit to. Not only benefit to the providers, but. Right. But benefit to the clients ultimately because they're going to get the same level of off increased level of offering for the same. With the same relationship.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I'd say I got into the industry accidentally. I'm using that word that used before calling like, I didn't have a choice. I had to help because if I didn't, I got to learn a lot and realized I'm like, I love this. Like this.
Yeah. Yeah. I get to see some really cool growths, my own included. Being that small guy. I'm hands on. I'm with them rather than behind an office over here with everybody else doing it.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: It's about relationships. Right. As well. So. And there's there's the relationship that you've got the clients exactly like you said before, families. I used to spend more time speaking to the families than I did the actual clients. And then you've got the support coordinators. You throw those in the mix again, talk about the reform instead of having the whole lac support coordinator plan management model.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: So you know a bit more about what they are looking to do to change with the NDI.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: I used to get a lot of questions about it, right from families and clients. They would be suggested to contact us from either, you know, by school teacher support coordinator or a friend. You know, we had clients that had pretty much nothing in their plans. We had other clients that had funding in their plans for like three years, but had nowhere to use it because they didn't know how to use it. I had no idea what was going on. Got a plan. How do I spend it? It doesn't come with a manual. That's where that navigator role will come through. So I took it upon myself as I needed to be forearmed to read through the initial reform documents that were available. I think it was on the NDIa website. I know that they've got other reforms that have come through that they're talking about. I know that they should be engaging in a consultative process, and there are certain departments that are and certain departments that aren't. And I suppose when I read through it, I was really looking at it through, how is this going to impact our clients and our future clients? And what can they expect? Of all the things that kind of jumped off the page for me, that the navigator concept was probably the one that I was like, that makes the most sense of any of the reforms. And I'm sure you're the same, Jace. You've spoken to people and you like, they've got a plan. They have no idea who's out there. If you go on Google, and you Google disability support pages and pages and pages go back to the earlier point, but how can you tell the difference between a good one and a bad one? Particularly when you look through the lens of a parent. Particularly when you look through the lens of a parent that sees the news about how many bad providers there are? Because there are people out there ripping the NDIs off your trust levels automatically in your boots. So you don't spend it right, just sits in the bank account waiting. And you just pray for a miracle that someone's going to be able to help you. Like I need help. I've got a plan, but it's not fixing anything. Because I'm not engaging. I'd be terrified to think how many people there are that are out there. And I'm pretty sure the NDIs won't do the exercise of working it out and picking up the phone and saying, huh, you've got a plan. Did you know that you can spend it? Here's how it works. Because the cost of the government would then be even more think. I can imagine it would go off the charts. But, yeah, it's having that process where the Lac that sets the funding can also say, here are some providers in your area that I think might do the good. These guys do this. I noticed that you've got this in your NDIs plan. I suggest that you partner with these guys because they're really good at that. It's that local base of experience and then to be able to recognize what's on the invoices. Right. Because I've got that line of sight over. You've got this in your plan, you've engaged with this provider and this invoice doesn't align to those expectations. So you're burning through the plan too quick and you've not got that line item. Why are you using so much core funding and not capacity building funding? Are you actually doing the things that you need to be doing with that provider or is there something else that we need to chop or change? Yeah, I think that's like a really holistic way forward. Also think they're going to have their work out because that workload for those three jobs is going to be immense.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: I work pretty directly with, with my clients and majority of them with their parents. It's a good thing that I've had to learn. I've had to learn. Feels like a lot of the different things that mums and dads had no idea about that exists.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: I can get.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Jeez, that would really help great if I had known about it two years ago, but I'm glad I know about it now. Things that like sles program. A couple of my clients are lucky that one of my clients got into. Into it. And he's doing that. Yes. Stuff actually, with, with Johnny H. And I'm like, hey, so he's finishing school. Have you heard about this? They're like, no. And now he's gone in and he's. He's getting that, which is great, because otherwise I know he would just be at home playing computer games, like.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and that's the key thing, right. Is. Is particularly in that age bracket, is getting in early. There's plenty of people that I've spoken to that have really struggled to engage post schools. Finished in September, almost Christmas. Then it's January, and then you blink and it's April. Because that's what happens at the start of the year. They're still not doing anything. They've not done anything now for eight months. The barrier to doing anything is so high that it becomes an absolute arm wrestle. Because I've already got the option and I've been doing nothing for so long, it's hard to.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Then this is what I do Monday, this is what I do Tuesday, this is what I do with this. This is it.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: And then I have to change. And then again, almost on the opposite side of that. Okay, we're not at school. We're going to do this on a Monday, this on a Tuesday, this on a Wednesday, this on a Thursday, this on Friday. And it's like so packed and too packed and too diverse. I couldn't keep up with it myself. Grab a soft. The landing as you can. Post school, don't make it so much about necessarily what you're doing. Make sure that there's a similarity in what you are doing, potentially Monday to Friday. Right. Or you reduce it and you do Monday to Thursday, Tuesday to Friday. There's a block period of time during the week where there's a routine and you turn up at this time and you finish at that time, and you engage in something and you're with your peers so that there isn't a. That red flag that runs up around life. So different. Life goes on because I've got an established time, I know what's going on. I can manage my time. I can manage my emotions around knowing where I'm gonna be. Cause I'm always in the same lane. The hardest ones were the ones that kind of seemed to deviate a lot from that plan, to be honest.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: So they've gone from school and instead of going along and going, okay, I'm replacing that with this, this and this.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
It was either all or nothing. They were the hardest for me to work with and try and settle the client. Again, clients perspective. Right. Let's work with the family to make sure that the client's settled and they've got an established routine. The first thing that I always noticed was the emotional regulation, their ability to manage their own emotions consistently and often. That wasn't necessarily displayed to us, that was displayed at home. You know, mankind hasn't made a crowbar big enough to get someone that's paint the perfect picture. Right. Someone that's got odd social anxiety issues. ADHD, probably a level of ASD. You leave them in a bedroom for eight months to fester on a PlayStation and then try and get them to go and speak to people. Yeah, never going to happen.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Painting that picture. I can imagine the potential of that compounding. And 1020 years later, who are they?
[00:30:08] Speaker B: How do they feel?
[00:30:09] Speaker A: If I've been locked in a room for the majority of every day alone.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: And nothing but that, it's interesting as a. I suppose again, you chunk up and get a bit deeper meaningful. It's interesting because it's a reflection of us as a society. 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been an issue because there wouldn't have been the opportunity to play xboxes. The bedroom. Now, it doesn't mean that opportunity would have been better or worse. It just would have been different. We wouldn't have felt that they were necessarily trapped. It should be a safe space. It kind of probably isn't in truthfulness, because it's not allowing any natural stretch or growth or any of the things that you consider to be central as a human being. Yeah, it's a bit deeper meaningful for a Thursday night.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: I've got a young fellow that I look after on a Thursday, and we get into some quite deeper meaningful for NDIs with planning and stuff like that. That's not something that's in your expertise? Or is that not so much?
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Like I said before, very similar to yourself, Jace. I get phone calls with parents and they're like, I don't understand this. And I'm like, I'll work it out for you. I'll get back to you. Because the more that I know, the more I can help other people. Leave it with me. I'll ring you back. And I'd be on the phone to NDIs or support coordinators or someone. I need your help. Or, how does this work? Or why is this like this? Or. I think that's what's interesting about the NDIS, because no one, even the person that wrote it, wouldn't know all of it. Font of truth, as I call it. My font of truth when I worked for Johnny H was the price guy. Within that, the intent or the spirit of the NDIS is in that. That's how I used to kind of portray it. I was really fortunate. I had conversations with Chris Dremmel, who's. I think she's the directory director of workforce. So she looks after all the sledge training and the supportive work and all that sort of stuff, right? So she's like, quite high up in that sort of world. And I'd always say to her, right, what's the spirit behind it? I read this. What was your in, you know, what was the intent behind it? You know, I think that the hard thing is as well, Jace, is the speed of reform. It's always changing, right. Just as you get your head around it. It's a goal post move.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Trigger for the retention issue that exists within the NDIS is just that level of reform. And the reform will also, you know, mention those small people joining. It'll be one of the reasons that they go, because they won't be able.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: To keep up learning all the NDIs, the pitfalls, the hurdles. I've caught up NDIs and said, hey, can you give me a direct answer on this? I'm like, hang on, I don't feel right about that. And I put it on one of the groups I've got yelled at for it. It's like, how could you think that? And I'm like, NDIS told me it's this guy's understanding of the rule. Is this tells you that through?
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I remember doing. I think it was one of the early courses that I did in the sport and rec industry. It was around the legal litigation stuff. It was back in the late nineties. Beware of the America syndrome. Right. Litigation was becoming a pretty big thing in the UK. It was talking about the legal system, and it was. All of the acts don't have commas, them, or grammar, which means that they're entirely open to interpretation. So actually, what gets enforced, that's why I talk about the spirit and intent of things. Because what gets enforced isn't the letter, because the letter doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make sense, because it's got no commas or apostrophes or. It's actually the spirit and the intent behind the documentation that's the most important. When I look at the NDIS price guide, that was always my font of truth.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: So when you're reading that isimland code is for, and their little blurb that they give about it, why did they say that is what this is for?
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah. What does that mean for a client? How would that correlate to a client's plan? So how would they know if they achieved that as an objective? One of the things that we did at Johnny H was renamed school leaves Employment Supports program. Feedback from the NDIS was that they were moving away from a school leavers employment supports program. Two key reasons there are clients that are at school that want to get part time jobs, that need support to get them. Second thing is that there are clients in their twenties that weren't ready to get work when they left school. But they're ready now.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: And they need an intensive push on the back to get to that point. Right. The NDIS recognized that talk of a name change, so we moved away from calling it sleds to work readiness. And then when you read through actually the sleds funding, essentially, that's what it's about. It doesn't actually read about school leavers, it's just called school leavers. But it reads about there being opportunities and pathways and support for employment. Very broad scope.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: You get a 29 year old dude come in that definitely was not ready. The last ten years he's been working on himself and he's out in the community and I want to earn some wages of my own.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: At the moment, he's not eligible. Right. Because he's not a school lever.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: And the other employment funding avenues don't address quite the same issue. That was the talk behind the reform in that education space, but it seems to have been on the back burner for the other reform, you know, the key reform across the whole NDIS system as opposed to it being just around that one funding.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: There'll be some cool stuff coming there in that space. Sure. Because there's lots of opportunities in there.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: Looking at some of the different changes that you're aware of, it coming up from your perspective, you think that there may be a bit more of a positive outlook looking like there may be some initiatives for improvement.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: I think some of it for sure. As I said before, the introduction of the navigators, in my mind is a big tick requiring providers to register. It's a good idea. The determinant as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing is actually going to be in the detail. If all you need to do to register is provide your insurance details, that doesn't actually really provide a much credibility. But if they're actually going through your systems and your processes, there's oversight of, say, your invoicing so that they can check that there's credibility in that, then that makes a lot of sense. When it gets to that level of administration as well, then it's really hard for the NDIs to justify because the expectation is that, Jason, you're going to need to spend as much time preparing for an audit as a large not for profit. You've not got the opportunity to acquire any grant funding because you're a for profit business, whereas they're a not for profit. So they can do grant applications to help subsidize some of the costs of their overheads. I don't necessarily know how they can roll it out effectively, but again, all of that points towards market consolidating, in my opinion. Some people would just be like, I just want to do support work. I love it. I love the relationship that I've got with my clients. I want to do all the good stuff. I don't want to do anything around marketing or networking. For most people, I always go back to bookkeeping, right. Because most people that I speak to are like service based people. They're interacting and they're doing stuff. If you get them to try and sit down and pretend that they're an accountant for half an hour, they'll check it out. Yeah. They'll find every excuse to not reconcile their books. It's not most people's idea of a good time, but that's why we have accountants, right? You look at how things are going to change. I think they'll be, you know, the approach that you're taking in terms of the breadth of knowledge base that you're trying to bring into your world, I think is key. I think doing that sort of thing will create sustainability for yourself. It's just what that looks like for other people. Doing what you do because it's what you've always done isn't going to work in the new world order. With the reform that's coming through, the shifting client expectations and the competitive pressures, because it is a competitive industry, more people popping up means more offerings becoming hard to compete. And you can't compete on price. It's about service delivery.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: You could compete on service, right? And that should be exactly what we're all competing on, 100%.
[00:36:51] Speaker B: The hard thing with competing on service is everyone's got their favorite restaurant, right? You go to your favorite restaurant, you know what you're going to get, you're going to pay for it. How many bad meals do you have at that restaurant before you decide that that's not your favorite restaurant anymore and you need to try some else? The emotional attachment that we've got. But it's more than that even, because it's families and clients. They're individuals and humans, in my opinion, affected with a resistance to change. Right? No, we don't like change.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll keep dealing with this guy who's not quite perfect for me anymore, but I've been dealing with him for ten years.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: He's the devil I know, definitely. And I think part of that is fueled by some of the stuff in the media as well. There is that constant portrayal of people within the NDIS as being bad guys. You don't actually. When was the last time you turned the news on when you heard a hero story at the end? The is really good example is the Paralympics. The australian swim team have just had their trials. Amazing records broken from both cohorts, the paralympic swimmers and the Olympic swimmers. There were a lot of obviously disability people within that and there were a lot of tv interviews afterwards. I can't actually say that I heard anyone talk about how they were really grateful that they got the support from the NDIS to be able to get here or do that. Didn't hear it right. It's not like block funding or government funding. I mean, it is. It's the NDIs. Kind of interesting. As an organisation, we wear the sticker. In theory, if you're registered, you put the sticker on I heart NDIs. From a client's perspective, I've actually had the conversation with people. So Johnny H was very, really specific in our brand. We wouldn't drive buses with disability on it. They were just plain white buses with little stickers on it to identify that it was ours. We never used the word support, care, disability, because our clients didn't want to associate as having a disability, needing support or wanting care. You don't hear the good news stories. It's a political hot potato, which is sort of really unfortunate, actually. And I would love for the ministers to just come out and actually talk about the good that it does. There's no perfect system. It's. I come from the UK, right, with the NHS. Anyone that leaves the UK talks about how amazing the NHS is. But then when you're in the UK, all you do is complain about the NHS because the waitlist are too long and you've got this and I can't get that. I get the whinging pom thing, but.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: I wasn't going to say anything.
[00:38:52] Speaker B: It's also kind of true. But my thing is, I'd love to see some good stuff out from the NDIS. When I was at Johnny H, we achieved some amazing things with clients, had some amazing outcomes. You know, within six months, we had clients that were barely recognizable from a behavioral standpoint. The parents didn't recognize them. That's just the best thing, because the client clearly wasn't being themselves. When they were at school. They left school, they had that soft landing, they met their friends, they found some friends on their own that are like them. And then they grew and they became themselves, and they went from being the quietest person in the room to the noisiest, and they were loved because of it. And I just think that's so cool. So cool.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Those are the stories that, when you were saying that before, you were like, no one gets to hear these stories. And I'm like, I hear these stories every day. The positive ones I'm hearing, I'm going, oh, my God, this is great, because I'm hearing them go, hey, yesterday I hung out with my friend because I'm hearing all of these great. But, yeah, I don't think about the other people. All they hear is NDis scammers, NDis fraud, NDis scary number.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: If you're in the sector, you hear it and you can kind of temper that balance. But there's also the Tracy Grimshaw effect. Longley. Tracy Grimshaw. No one lives in excitement of Tracy Grimshaw. It's all fear. So the NDIS would never have been on there because the amazing stuff that it's done, it would only ever have been on there because people defrauding it. What about the positive news stories? Right? Kids that can do stuff, kids that couldn't do stuff. And if they can't, and then they can, it's because the community's rallied around them. But at some point in time, surely someone has to go, oh, geez, any ice? Did a real good job with that one. They actually gave the funding where it was needed. Haven't heard about the success stories of disability clients not being housed in aged care provisions. That was a big thing in the news. I remember it being in the news all the time. The penny hadn't dropped. For me at the time, it was a big thing. I can't confirm nor deny that it's occurring at the moment, but I'm going to assume that it isn't. As I don't hear it on the news. What sells newspapers, it's not good news. Almost like pre programmed to clickbait. We see those headlines and we click, and every click means money. And we don't click the good ones, we click the bad ones. I've seen a study that was around that negative news articles get 20 times as many clicks or something as a good news story. You know, back to your studies.
[00:40:54] Speaker A: What strategies did you follow or do you believe would be effective in improving staff engagement and retention in the disability sector?
[00:41:02] Speaker B: There are a couple of factors. Looking at it from a leadership perspective, I think the industry can do some work things like career development opportunities. It's not an industry that you feel like you're going to get career advancement, so having the time invested in you, if that's something you want to step up to. The recommendations of the report essentially were around connecting with the employees more. Given that you've got a big organization, you've got loads of individual support workers out in the world doing their thing. How often are they getting touch base with? How do they get touch base? How do you know what sentiment of the workers is across the top? Things like staff engagement surveys. They've always been critical for me, but it was actually something that would address a lot of issues within the reported data in terms of that engagement, because essentially, if you don't measure it, you can't find out about it. And it would be different across all organizations as well. It kind of potentially seems a bit like common sense, but it's actually really important when you have those as well, is they're making sure that from an individual perspective, you have those conversations around career journey.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: We want to know that we're on a path ourselves, our jobs. To develop the clients. The leader's job within disability organizations is to develop the staff and the workforce that they've got that are working for them, not only because that improves the standard of care, delivering to clients, but it makes them feel that they're part of something as it grows. Right? That they're. They've got opportunities to aspire to rather than.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: I've been with this company since it started and it's grown. I've stayed the same. This company's grown. We're looking after way more people. And these guys have actually helped me out. I now know this, this and this. I can help these guys as well. I understand a bit more. Some of them, most of my personal life, I've improved.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: There's definitely a need, and you sort of mentioned it earlier around, learned experience within the sector, there's definitely need for learned experience. The expectations of the workforce has changed from what it was 510 years ago. The expectation now of leaders is that there's a much higher level of empathy. There's a level of understanding that goes on in terms of almost like the global workplace back in the fifties or sixties, it was all around stamping time cards and you were a manager, you managed. People go here, do this repetitive task. Whereas these days the workplace is just so much more dynamic. These technological factors, the role of the manager, become much more of a leader. There's management components within it, but it's the job to basically create the environment more so for the staff to do the things that they're inspired to do. So there's been that shift and that's not necessarily a skill that you get by doing the job. Just because I'm a great support worker doesn't mean that I'll be a great support worker leader or a team leader.
And then just because I'm a good team leader doesn't mean I'll be a great state manager. And because I'm a great state manager, there's different skill sets for each of those set points that you need to acquire along the way and have that lived experience in that space to bring it to life.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: Is that something that should be coming directly from the company that they're in or is that something that should be coming from the government? Incentives like free taFe.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: That's a good point. So in the DSS department of Social Services in there ndis one workforce plan, then recognizing that they need to develop those essentially training systems and pathways in order to provide those opportunities for people within my personal take on that, essentially charity starts at home. It's the job of every organization to breed effective leaders because effective leadership breeds effective employees, which breeds, in the service industry, engaged and rewarded clients. The real win in a scenario like that is that actually you also get the client's impact on the staff who get impact on the team leaders, and it flows up as well as flowing down. The leadership competencies within the disability sector is probably one of the key focus area.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Talking to someone who is a small business owner, what would you say would be the best way to apply or to begin applying something like that to get that step up.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: The key thing is that works when you've got other people in and around you in most people's situations. Small business owner, operator, you are the accountant leader, business owner, marketing expert, service provider, cleaner, all of the above. I think the critical thing in that, surround yourself with people that you know will provide you the support that you need. The key thing is working out that support you need, and there's plenty of support out there. So one of the things that I do as a hobby, straight up hobby, is work with the Queensland government on their mentoring program. The Queensland government have a free business mentoring program that anyone can sign up for. I think you get two, maybe three hour long video calls with people that have volunteered their time with different expertises that you basically get partnered with based off the information that you request from the government. Really? Yeah. Yeah, seriously. It's an amazing program. So you lodge an application to go on as a mentee. They ask, they give you a basic business case form so you can go on there. And the more information you put on, they essentially, then based off of what you put as in what do you want to do, where do you need some help, where are you at? What's the life cycle of your business? They then partner you up with mentors specific to what you are looking to get out of that conversation. And then you go back in six months time. Go, right after my last one, I did this, this, this, now I need some help doing this and this. And you get different mentors that come in. I had one today, I've read their notes. It was an OT provider for medical products. He had his first session, he put all this stuff into place and then comes back to the table and goes, right, any new ideas? Because I've done this, this, this, this, and I'm at this point here, and here's what I'm thinking and finding and what do you guys think? And there's support out there and it's not all necessarily paid for the networking events, even Jason, that you organize. Right. Like the opportunity within those to kind of go and build those connections and get that peer support. Every time that you find yourself coming across someone, can you go, oh, I kind of wish I'd known that is then working out a way, not sorry of you sharing that knowledge, but create that as a trigger for yourself. Because if you've got a question in your head, everyone else has probably got a question in this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect. It starts off a bit negative, but I don't mean it to be that way. But it's the reason that, you know, you meet some people and you're like, you don't know anything, but you come across like you think you know all of it. That's kind of the Dunning Kruger effect, typified by the fact that the more you become an expert, the more you realize that you don't know. It's kind of interesting because you get into it and you think you've got your head wrapped around everything and you kind of get some confidence and then you start to lose it all because you realize that actually there's so much more that you don't know. Yeah, much like the NDIS document, right. It's almost impossible to know everything about everything. Just surround yourself with people that you believe you can get the answers from. If you don't hunt them out.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Free business mentoring link will be on the website.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: It's definitely worth looking into, to be honest. For anyone that's running small business, that's trying to, not even struggling to be honest, because half the time knowing that you're on the right track's a bonus, right. Because you don't know. Yeah, I've had great conversations with people through that program from all different businesses and all different sectors, and that's why I kind of inverted commas, call it my hobby, because I get to speak to people about the things that they're really passionate about and then actually try and apply some diversity of thought to their mindset. You know, their industry does things a certain way and they're like, oh, I don't have to do that. And I'm like, oh, well, the country's largest gymnastics class was the GM of that for just shy two years. We used to do this as an enrollment program and that worked really well.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: So leaving any of our viewers, is there anything that you would like to impart or, or share?
[00:47:59] Speaker B: If there's anyone that's got any questions about anything, you've got my contact details, if there's any questions or anything that comes up, if there's any major themes of anything. Jason and I come back for addendum part two.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yes, I've learned from my previous one that part twos are going to be quite likely to happen for this because there's so much information.
I will leave some links to fresh perspectives so you can find some information. Contact James a little bit more information there for anyone that needs ways to contact them or questions to ask. Thank you very much. For everybody that's listening, stay motivated, stay happy. I look forward to seeing you next time.
