Understanding Bullying: Effects, Support, and Creating Emotional Safety | P1/2 with Lucie Tursicova

[00:00:00] Speaker A: There we go. So welcome to another episode of Vicarious Insights. Learn with me, the podcast where we delve into the diverse world of disability services, bringing you insights from professionals, parents and individuals with lived experiences. I'm Jace, your host, and today we have a very special guest joining us. We've got Lucy Tosekova. Lucy is a dedicated therapist at Eucalypt Therapy, specialising in trauma informed therapeutic interventions. She provides support in areas like psychotherapy, behavioral support and educational support. Lucy brings a wealth of experience to her practice, having also worked at Headspace where she supported young people with their mental health and well being. Her approach is personalized and compassionate, aiming to foster personal growth and resilience in our clients. Hello, Lucy. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Thanks so much. Thanks so much. I see you've done your research a little bit. [00:01:01] Speaker A: So, Lucy, so for the listeners, we are going to get in today. We're going to be talking a bit about bullying, but first we want to get to know a little bit about you and how it is that you know some stuff about this. So could you tell us a bit about what got you into the industry? [00:01:18] Speaker B: Oh, that's a really good question. I originally started in it and then realized that that was not where I wanted to be and I was working in a bit of a spicy part of it. So I moved into human services and I really wanted to be, wanted to work with children and in child safety. So I worked in child safety and child protection space for about seven or eight years. Jace and I was mainly working in that investigatory space, investigating cases that would probably lead to a criminal conviction in regard to, you know, what was going on with those children in that family. And then I saw that within my time with child protection and child safety, that the mental health needs were not being met for those young people and having that kind of trauma informed care and trauma informed lens for young people. And you saw it time and time again with these wee ones. So I decided to kind of pivot my practice into mental health. So I worked as a mental health clinician and I was a clinical manager for two wonderful headspaces, both in Dubbo and Bo desert. And I worked with lots of young people. I've predominantly worked in rural and regional areas all around Australia, so that's been pretty awesome. And now I have my own private practice. So I'm a mental health social worker. I'm also a registered specialist behavioral support practitioner and I'm currently a candidate to do my doctorate in arts specializing in psychology. So that's me. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Wow. Definitely a little bit different to it. [00:03:08] Speaker B: A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So I was working in digital forensics and mainly within those spaces where children were being harmed. So just kind of. Yeah. Kind of made me pivot to a space of going, I just really want to protect children. I really want to be in that space of protecting children. So I feel my career has kind of done the whole arc of, you know, going from child protection to now protecting our young people within their. Their mental health space. But I now I kind of. I don't just see young people, I see people from zero to 100, so I don't really discriminate with age anymore. [00:03:48] Speaker A: That's like, I could imagine. I would imagine doing the it stuff there that. That would have. You wouldn't have had a choice seeing that stuff. You would be like, right. How do we. How do we put an end to it? [00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I guess, you know, when. When you work within the criminal justice system, a lot of the time, it can be quite disheartening and disenchanting sometimes when, you know, you're working within that kind of psychological mindset of, you know, the bad guys go to jail and the good guys get justice. And unfortunately, it's not like law and order, SVU, sometimes that doesn't happen, so. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but don't divulge all of their secrets in the last 12 seconds. No, that's not happening. [00:04:33] Speaker B: I really wish they did put him in a. Put him in a chokehold. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I will keep my feelings out of this, I think should happen there. All right, so with that. And this bit's going to get cut then? [00:04:55] Speaker B: Nah, keep it in. Show you're a real person, jace. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Well, I. Yeah, for the time. It's for the time. Um. All right, so we're going to go through a couple of. So start yourself again. So this stuff makes me talk faster. Apparently, my mouth was going faster than my brain at the moment. All right, take a breath. So, looking at your practice, I see you do a few different things, and from what you just said there, now you've got a few. So something that in the industry, there's terminologies and there's words that we all use a lot before getting into the industry. These words I've never heard of. And I know that some parents out there that have all of a sudden got a child that has needs in this world. Some of these words are new. So you have trauma informed, psych, psychotherapy. So what would you describe trauma informed? [00:05:57] Speaker B: So that was a really interesting masters and a really interesting journey I went in when I decided to be a trauma informed psychotherapist. So, I guess, essentially, the framework there is. We believe that. I guess, the behaviors that are presented and the way that we respond to things is purely because of the things that have happened to us. So those impacts that have happened in our lives will create this space of how we will respond to that. And sometimes that can look a little bit maladaptive, shall we say? Or that can look a little bit scary, or that can look a little bit defiant. I love that word when they say that young people are being defiant, and it's kind of like, well, how are they? I guess it's how they express to get their needs met, you know? So it's kind of like what has happened to you has led to where we are here. But the masters of trauma informed psychotherapy was actually designed for psychiatrists and gps to become more trauma informed within their medical practice. So it only opened up recently to allied health professionals, and I was only one of a few allied health professionals. A majority of people were medical doctors that were in that master's project, and it was interesting to see how doctors approach certain things with a completely different lens or a completely different framework that I really understand much about attachment or, you know, like, how the impacts of trauma can impact people's general wellbeing or mental wellbeing, or even their physiological well being as well. So it was a really beautiful process to go through that master's program and seeing all these light bulb moments of people who are very, very high up in their medical, you know, career. And I don't know about you, Jace, but I'm one of those people that are quite intimidated by medical doctors. So being in that space and being in that room with them and. And them, like, really learning and absorbing all that really beautiful stuff that I guess social workers have known for a really long time. Yeah, it was beautiful. So, yeah. And it kind of gives me faith in humanity that doctors, like, want to know about you and what your story brings to the table in regards to your general health. So, yeah, it was pretty cool. [00:08:26] Speaker A: That makes sense. [00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I tend to do that sometimes. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Did you tend to make that me? Not so much. That's why. That's my question to you guys. You guys know more. It's good. There was another interesting terminology that you used on your website. I had a quick view there before, and I'm guessing, and I'm filling in gaps, but I think it's what I think it is. It sounds pretty good. Is carer assessment. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So we do. So being obviously, from that child protection space, we have a lot of need, I guess, to assess, like, new foster carers within the space. And child safety officers are so busy, it doesn't matter what state you're in in Australia, they're always under the pump. And to be able to do those really robust, I guess, care assessments to make sure that we're sending these really vulnerable little young people that have lived a life that have seen things that no one should have had to be exposed to and just to make sure that those people that we're sending them to can be that lighthouse, can be that one fixture in their life that is going to be good. That is going to be, you know, their guiding light to come back to safety and security and love and care and support. So I'm really, really passionate about that space. I'm really passionate about finding really good foster carers for people and doing those really thorough, probably intrusive assessments there. But I also do parental capacity reports. So the other side of the coin where we're assessing, you know, how baby can go home if there has been a level of unsafety and a child has had to be removed, like really assessing mum and dad and going, hey, look, I know that this has happened and I know this is probably the worst time of your life, but we're really going to have to work on how we can show that we can keep baby safe if baby can come back to you. So working on those really nitty gritty things about, you know, how we. How we show that we can create safety within us within a home. Yeah. So, no, I'm really passionate about that space and I guess come from it, from a very judgmental, free thing, I guess I've seen. I've seen a lot within my career days. So being able to go, okay, yeah, what's happened's happened and we can't change the past, but also a lot of this has to do with your upbringing, your attachment to baby, you know, also just being in a really crappy situation. Unfortunately, some parents start off behind the eight ball, you know, so, like, being able to show and guide them about how we can be better and how we can create safe space is really important to me. Yeah. [00:11:21] Speaker A: And that's. That's a tiered sort of system like you're working through going, okay, cool, we're going to get to this benchmark then, this benchmark. And you're going to be helping them along to get into that as well. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think in child safety space, we're really good at going, hey, this is what's gone wrong and this is why baby can't stay at home with you because it's not safe. Anyway, see you later. You know, like, it's not, it doesn't really have that flow on Jay. So to be able to go, yeah, okay, so we understand why baby wasn't safe. Now, what can we do to improve that? What can we do to improve safety? Because we do know that children have better outcomes when they are with mum and dad, if it is safe to do so. But I don't think we're very good with like, I guess, increasing that parental capacity because unfortunately, child safety, they have to be in a reactive space, but they also really don't have the time to sit down with mum and dad and go, hey, this is what we're going to do moving forward and this is what, what we need to see from you. So it can be a bit clandestine. And when parents are left in the dark, they're also very like, ah, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what. What's expected of me as well. So, yeah, yeah, wow, there's some big. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Conversations there too, isn't there? [00:12:40] Speaker B: There very much is. There very much is. But, yeah, so I guess my, I like when I look at my body of work and what I offer within my company, it kind of separates into three big spaces. Obviously, mental health is the big one. So I see people under a mental health treatment plan or see them for play therapy or music therapy or that real big trauma piece of work, but then obviously there's that child protection space as well, creating parental capacity, assessing really beautiful carers, making sure our we ones have the, the trauma therapy that they need when, unfortunately, removal has happened. But then there's obviously my NDIS side of it as well. So working with people who do have that psychosocial disability or even physical disability and how that's impacted on their mental health or their behaviors and what they're trying to tell us through those behaviors and how we can adjust that and move them in a more gentler direction. So I guess it's really hard to describe what we do at Euclip therapy because it is such a broad umbrella. And I guess Jason also, that sort of person is like, I could do that. I could do that. It has kind of turned into this really big beast. And my wonderful husband is the head of English at a fancy pants school and he does all these beautiful trauma informed educational plans. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Fancy pads. Sorry, I had to laugh. [00:14:17] Speaker B: So he like, I guess, obviously being married to me, he has different lens of what education can look like as well, and being more individualized with application of education, because one size does not fit all. So, yeah, we do a lot. [00:14:37] Speaker A: Good. Yes, that's. It all starts from. Well, not all starts, but, yeah, a lot of everything stems from what we do and what we learn in school, isn't it? [00:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:49] Speaker A: There's a lot of. Lot of potential there. And you just ticked off my other. Other little questions there, too. [00:14:57] Speaker B: I'm jumping ahead. [00:14:59] Speaker A: That's good. That's good. And usually. So I will try to have questions ready to go. But most of these we've gone off conversationally. Yes, that's the point. So, to make sense, then you're in Southport. Ashmore. [00:15:14] Speaker B: Ashmore, yes. So I've moved from Southport to Ashmore. We've got our own little clinic now, and it honestly is my happy space, jace. I mean, I'm in the clinic now, so I just sit here and just kind of accept that vibe. [00:15:33] Speaker A: So it's a comfortable place to be. [00:15:34] Speaker B: It's a beautiful place to be. Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:39] Speaker A: So getting into. So straight. Well, straight into. We've had into the bullying. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:45] Speaker A: So this is so where I'm at. The clientele that I look at. Most of the guys that I work with have experienced it, at least at some stage, to varying degrees, but it seems to be a very common strain. And I'm like, the more I can know about this, the better I can assist or better I can know how to act in the right situations to, as you're talking about with the trauma, informed things like that, knowing, it's like, well, hang on. If I can nudge you this way or if I can say something that's really right that you can think of later on now, anybody that's listening, maybe the parent or a support worker or a nan or a pop or somebody that's going to be interacting with these guys who wholeheartedly just want to fix this bullying. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker A: And how do we do it? So that's the whole question. How do we do? [00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh, easily. I just kind of wave this magic wand and bullying just kind of disappears. I think that's what we do. But it's really interesting, Jace. Cause I guess my question for you was, like, what got you interested in having the conversation about bullying and, like, you seeing it all the time and you working within that personal training fitness thing, within that NDIs, but you're already working with such a vulnerable, like, vulnerable members of the community and, like, giving them that confidence. And that, you know, self belief, you know, is kind of 90% of the problem here, right? Like, they. They need to know that they can, you know, exist in a space of, you know, be confident. So. And bullying is the complete opposite of that. It tears people down. It's tearing down their self worth. It's tearing down their self confidence. And now I guess we'll. We'll talk about why I believe that people do that. [00:17:43] Speaker A: And that's what knowing why something works. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:48] Speaker A: This is why I'm doing the podcast is, for me, if I. If I can understand how the cogs over here are working and why that's making this happen over here, then I'm going to be better over here, because I understand that. So with that getting down to the nitty gritty of why is the bullying happening? [00:18:07] Speaker B: And I guess also why, like, how it. How it affects our young people so much more. And I always taught, like, obviously, predominantly my career has been working with young people. And it's taken me some time to realize that, you know, children do have that level of sensitivity to rejection. And if you've got neurodiversity on top of that, that rejection is going to be higher. But I'm always quite curious, Jace, to be like, well, why? Like, why is it that the way that it is and the best way it was described to me was like, okay. So I say to the young people, like, okay, so you're 14 years old, all right? If you were in caveman times, depending on whether you're a male or a female male cavemen, you know, you would have had your caveman wife, and cavemen wife's in her little cave with all your cavemen babies, and all the other wives are in the cave, and they're all looking after each other, and they're all looking after the babies, and all applying their mother craft. And it's not just looking after their own babies. They're looking after everyone. So you're a community, and then the males all go off and hunt together and kill saber toothed tigers and bring that home to the women, you know, but they do it in a tribe. They do it in a pack. So when you're in your tribe, when you're in your mob, when you're in your community, you have safety. Okay? So, jace, you're. You're a little caveman, and you've got your little caveman wife, and you've done something so terrible that they're going, jace, I don't think you can live with us anymore. I think you need to move out. Jace, unfortunately, if you went out on your own as a caveman, you'd die. You can't exist in the wilderness by yourself. All right? So the brain hasn't really developed much from that space of equating rejection with death. So for young people, when they're going through that. That caveman brain stage of their development, right, they really do equate rejection with death. If I'm rejected by my tribe, I am going to die. I am not going to survive the winter. Okay? And even rationally, we know that that's not true. But there's this beautiful part of our brain back here called the amygdala, or our survival part of our brain that is sending off those signals, like, jace, you are not going to survive the winter. You are not going to survive the winter. So bullying in teenage years, or in those formative years, hits so much harder because there's that part of our brain that's going, we're not going to survive this. But then bullying stems from a space of, I guess, the continuation of perpetration. When we work with perpetrators in psychology or social work, and we see them enter the criminal justice system or we see them enter jail, we always know that they're going to behave in a way to kind of be top dog on the field for their safety. Right? Like, they'll go in there and they're either going to be physically violent towards someone to kind of assert dominance. Dominance, or they're going to do something else of another nature. Okay? But it's all to assert dominance within that space. And you'll look back at that and go, okay, well, what's this person's history? And it's going to be. I'm trying to create a space of when I felt the worst in my life, when I felt the most powerless. And that's either by the time where I was physically abused, where I was abused in other ways, or if I was very, very verbally abused or neglected. So, bullies within their tiny little adolescent brains have probably experienced a moment in their life where they haven't been in control, where they haven't had a safe place to put their feet. And unfortunately, Jay's hurt people hurt people. So they're trying to establish a space of picking on someone that they believe is more vulnerable to kind of explain the reason why they're hurting. In their heart, you know, why they're. They're feeling the way that they do. But unfortunately, we know that when we hurt people, it doesn't take away that pain. It doesn't take away that trauma, and then we're just making someone else feel horrible. And unfortunately, at the moment, with. With bullying the way that it is, we can't escape it. Like, back when I was at school. You go to school, experience bullying, you can go home. That's your safe place. Right? But kids are experiencing bullying 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They've got devices. People can access them on social media. The bullying never stops. There's never a safe place for them. All right, so I guess it's that, you know, and I'll talk about, obviously, what we can do afterwards to create that space of safety. But, you know, when we've got kids that are never going to feel safe, like, what, you know, it can be fatal. Bullying can be fatal for our young people. So it's something that we need to be taking seriously and understanding why the bullies are behaving the way that they are, but also making them accountable for that behavior and what we can do moving forward. Yeah. [00:23:36] Speaker A: So I got brought up with old school. I don't know, it probably gets frowned on now, but you flog the bully, and that's not always viable. I remember when I was young, I had. I moved to a new. I moved to a lot of schools, so I went to a new school, and a couple of kids, I still remember their names, and they started trying to bully me. I remember one day I was running away from them, chasing me, and I was like, why am I running away? And I turned around. We fought each other. We become best mates for two weeks. Then I realized they were actually idiots. I don't want to be there. [00:24:11] Speaker B: Well, that's the thing as well, right? But this is the thing. There was something about you, jase, that they saw, and they were like, is this the one? Is this the one that's going to be more vulnerable? And I guess it's. You know, a bully's going to go around the playground and start pushing people off swing sets, but there's always going to be that one that turns around and just gives them a knock, you know, and they're like, okay, so that's not the person that I can make myself feel like. I'm in power and control, because they're fought back. They're not the vulnerable party here. So bullies will always go for someone that are weak, are weaker than them. So when we were talking about what you're doing, jace, like, giving people that self confidence and getting them physically ready for that sort of thing, it takes away that level of vulnerability and bullies will be like, well, that's too hard. I'm going to go for someone that I know that I can perpetrate against. Because at the end of the day, perpetrators don't just perpetrate for the sake of it. They are doing it for a reason. Whether that's conscious or subconscious, it's still to get a need met. And unfortunately, them getting their need met is not. Is not okay. It's not. It's not a good behavior that they're engaging in. [00:25:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:25] Speaker A: So it's. It. Yeah. So it's addressing it on both sides. So is that something that school should. Is that something school's allowed to do? Can. Can the school come in and psychoanalyze the bully and say, hey, here's how we can help you, buddy. [00:25:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And jace, this is the thing. Like, I guess when I see bullying within a space like that, I'm always curious to why. Why is this child acting the way that he is? Because, like, if there was. If there was, everything was hunky dory and mum was Betty Crocker and dad was like, the most attentive dad in the world, taking him out to baseball games all weekend, we wouldn't have a bullying problem. Okay. There's clearly something going on where the child is feeling he needs. He or she needs that need met. But I feel like with school, schools, I guess they do recognize that. I guess they recognize that bullying is, I guess, a symptom of something so much bigger. But I also think that they're in a space where. I'll use an example. I had a young person come to me and say, I'm being bullied at school. And unfortunately, an assault happened at school. And they told, you know, the relevant people what had happened and that the assault had happened. And they said, well, I want to do something about it. I want to report this. This is not okay. This is not okay behavior. And the response from the school was, ah, like, this person is actually going through a lot. And I feel like if we. We kind of make them accountable for the behavior right now, something might happen. Like they might harm themselves or they might do this or they might do that. So I guess it's kind of walking that line. Line. Jace is like, yes, we do need to make them accountable for their behavior, but we also need to keep them safe. But it's never like, so what did that, like, what did the victim hear? The victim here, I'm not taken seriously. I'm not getting justice. I'm not seeing, you know, my needs met. You're thinking about my perpetrator and meeting their needs, but what about mine? Like, I'm the victim here, you know? And so many times in schools, I think that they do look at that and they're like, okay, well, if this person's being bullied, we'll just move them. Like, they're. They're the problem. Whereas we really do need to be looking at the bully and going, where is this behavior stemming from, mate? Like, what. What can we do to. To be assisting with that? And I think it was Queensland education that brought in this thing called the restorative justice program where they've used it a lot within. Within prisons as well, where the victim does have a space to go and confront their bully and say, okay, this is how your behavior has impacted me. This is how I felt when you were behaving this way against me. And this was the ramifications of it because sometimes there are really, really big gramifications. You know, there could be self harm, there could be suicidal ideation, and unfortunately, there has been people who have ended their life by suicide because of bullying. So your behaviors have impacted me in this way. So having that space to confront and go, do you really understand how your behaviours have impacted me? And so it also gives that bully the space to hear that, to hear how their behaviors have impacted on somebody else. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes it's not that. The bully does also need to be in a space of self reflection and to be able to hear that as well. And unfortunately, sometimes that's not there yet, but at least it gets the cogs turning that, oh, crap, my behaviors do have an impact on people and we also see the ripple effects of it. Like, I was doing counseling for a wee person who had lost their sister to suicide and it was suicide due to bullying. And now they're needing counseling. Now they're needing to know, how do I move on from this? How do I move on with such regret and hurt and grief and anger and all of those emotions that stem from what bullying can do to people. So it is really, if I was to speak to parents about how we kind of fight this head on, it really is. Your children need to know that you're in their corner and that you're their advocate, that you're going to go to that school, you're going to fight for them, you're going to get their needs met, you're going to get their voice heard, they're going to have a space at the table and that they're going to be taken seriously, because not only does that see action, but it shows your kid, hey, my parents are here for me no matter what. Like, they will back me ten toes down. They're going to be that person for me. It creates safety, it creates security, it creates a beautiful, healthy, strong attachment. And that's what we want to see with children and parents, you know, but don't. It's. Sometimes it's. Don't take no for an answer. Like, this is what we need to see and always recommend. Is restorative justice an option for us? Is this an opportunity that we can have these big, courageous conversations with one another to see how this is going to look moving forward? And what is your policy about dealing with bullying? Like, is it a one strike, you're out policy? Is there suspensions, is there expulsions? Or is there the space where, you know, this is an educational moment. Like, I heard a really great teacher explain this as, like, you know, in an educational system, we tell people how to write a sentence, how to spell a word, how to read a book. We also need to teach children how to behave and what behavior is acceptable and what's not acceptable, because if they don't know, they don't know. So giving that bully the opportunity to learn that their behaviour is not okay is a really powerful tool. So we need to be looking that as well. Like, we need to teach our children what good behavior looks like. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:52] Speaker B: It's a really big wind in it. Like. [00:31:57] Speaker A: As you're talking, like, of. I've. I have got some clients that are in the process of these things happening. So in my brain, I always tell people I'm talking to us. Like, if it looks like I've gone off in the distance, I'm just filtering everything through and I am. I'm putting in my filing system and I've got. Ticking off some boxes that there's some kids that that stuff's in the process of happening, you know, and they're doing all of those things and I'm like, I get to go home. And I'm kind of, hey, guess what. Guess what? She said. You did this right and you did this right and you did this right. But being. Being there for them, being. Proving that they have a safe place at home, mom and dad are inside, has got to be a really. I can imagine going, you're having all of that crap happening and then you come home and mum and dad, from a kid's perspective, don't give a crap or they gloss over it, because how do you deal with that. What do you do? How do you, like, you've got to work that out on your own. And it's such a big. [00:33:04] Speaker B: Such a space of helplessness as well. Like, when your kid comes home and goes, oh, mom or dad, I'm experiencing this at school. Like, there's either one or two reactions. Like, you go, oh, let me, Adam, you know, or it's kind of like, well, what did you do? What did you do to cause this? You know what I mean? And we do find that a lot, I guess, in that space of. Can I. Can I use the term revenge pornography on here? Or. [00:33:32] Speaker A: It's not a swear word. [00:33:33] Speaker B: Okay. So we do see that in a space of. If there is, like, non consensual illicit material being sent behind, like, you know, within the schoolyard. And I think that's something that's happening more and more frequently is that, you know, a young person can consensually share an image of themselves, and then that relationship goes sour, and then all of a sudden, that image is all around the school, you know, and then it's very easy for parents to slip into that space of going, oh, your bloody shouldn't have taken that image. Like, you know, this is. This is on you. Okay? But, like, we've got to also recognize that young people don't have this part of their brain fully developed at that time. They're wanting love, they're wanting care. They're wanting to know that the people get them and accept them. Again, thinking about caveman brain, if we want acceptance by our tribe, this is what we have to do. If I have to send a picture of me in my front, then this is going to be acceptable in my tribe. So we've got to think about it in that context and also be going, well, just because you've done that or engaged in this behavior did not mean that you should be shamed for that. It did not mean that you should now have. Everyone in the school has seen what you look like naked. So I think that's a really. It's a really hard space for parents because there is that level disappointment that this has happened and that. But we really do need to be looking at, like, who's the bad guy here? And that bad guy is the person who has distributed that material, you know, without consent. So, yeah, that's another tricky space, I guess, where parents really have to navigate this is. It's not something that, you know, was around, I guess, when you and I were at school, Jay. So it is kind of moving with the times and showing this support where it's like, okay, I'm going to give you the education, the psycho education that you need about, you know, self respect and respecting your body and engaging in this behavior in, you know, a more healthy way. But also, we've got to get the bad guy here. And that bad guy is the person who done this. So. Yes, very multifaceted. [00:36:04] Speaker A: So on a parenting perspective, it's when the child is coming in and for a support or care or whatever, when they're coming in with that information, being on the side first. [00:36:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, cool. What can I do to make sure that, you know, that you're not getting kicked out of the tribe? [00:36:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:24] Speaker A: You know, you're not going to die by our hands from this. Yeah, we're going to hold you in here. Maybe later on we might talk through some etiquette and two, and maybe not. [00:36:36] Speaker B: To keep ourselves safe. Yeah. [00:36:40] Speaker A: But 1st, first and foremost is to be on side. [00:36:43] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. And this is the thing with parenting as well. Jace is like, I think as a parent, we always beat ourselves up when we don't get something right. And at the end of the day, parenting does not have a manual. I am very, very blessed that I have five children. And trust me, I have made plenty of mistakes with all of my children, you know, but I always use this example and it's, I guess it's just one of those examples that are used for both parents and young people. I had an esky in between two of my children and I said to them, I was like, you have to hold that esky when we go around a corner, because otherwise is going to go on the ground and ice is going to go everywhere and I'm going to be cranky. Okay? So I've said to them that this is what has to happen. Go through the Macca's drive thru. Obviously you're doing the big U. And of course what happens, Jace Esk goes on the ground, ice goes everywhere. That Esky had no business being between my children. It should have been on the ground in the first place. But of course I didn't. And my daughter is so upset and she's crying and she's like, mom, I really tried. I really tried to keep the esky stable. And I said, you know what? Sometimes I don't think you do try. And I'm like, oh, what have I done? So I have that big breath in, don't I, Jason? I pull over, I get out of the car and I go, you know what? I shouldn't have said that. I'm so sorry that I've yelled at you. That was about me. That wasn't about you. But what I can promise is that I'm going to try and be better next time because I can't fix what I've just done. But I can try and learn from this and I can be better. I'm the one who has to change my behavior here. So with parents, I guess when we do mess up, and we're always going to mess up, we can get stuck in that space of going, ah, you know I'm a crap mom. I've done this, I've done that. No. Okay, we've made mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. How are we going to be better next time? How can we be that consistent, safe person moving forward and not getting stuck up, like stuck and bogged down in the space of what we've done wrong, but what can we do right in the future? So I guess, yeah, that's. [00:38:59] Speaker A: Being a PT. Being my 1st first real business working for myself. The PT teaches you a lot specifically about failure. Failure is good failure and mistake. Well, mistakes failure. I'm putting the parallel there. But failure is a platform to improve. So in a gym you're intentionally working. You should be working towards failure. So if you can lift ten kilos easily, you're going to be going for twelve and a half or 15 kilos to get. I can't do anymore. And your body has to adapt. It goes, okay, well, when it's, when it's healing, it's coming back going, okay, so look at all these tears in the muscle. We're going to repair that a little bit stronger because clearly they're going to make me keep doing this over and over again. I'm going to get a little bit stronger. So we're working towards failure. So failure is not a bad thing if you improve because of it. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:58] Speaker A: If you lift that ten kilo to failure and then you come back next week and you lift that ten kilo to failure, like, are you learning from it? Are you improving? [00:40:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:07] Speaker A: You use that and go, okay, so next time I'm going to do a little bit better. And what I said, from what you were saying there, that you've come back in and you've, you've also modeled to your daughter, owning your mistakes. So she's got some learning potential from opportunity there for that as well. So yeah, he's seen, it's like mum was mean to me. Mom's fault. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:40:32] Speaker A: So that's how I should act when something is my fault. I'm not blaming other people. Mum showed me that what I should be doing is owning my mistakes. Yeah, sorry, I've gone off on my. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Oh, no, no, that's perfect. Because I was going to say that, like, and this happens so much within the whole span of childhood, right? And then, you know, early adolescence and adolescents and then young adults and, you know, I've got the spectrum of children, so my eldest turns 22 this year. Yay. And my youngest turns five, so I really do have the gamut. Okay. And. And it's like, I guess my elder children as well. Like, my daughter, she's 14 now, and she, like, when she's having a time or when she's dealing with something, you know, like, a good example is grief and loss. And we. And we recently lost a pet and, you know, she was upset and she was angry and she didn't understand why, unfortunately, you know, our beloved guinea pig passed away and, you know, she was having that really big trauma based response. She was entering fight mode. She was like, we're crap pet owners. You should be ashamed of yourself. And I'm like, it's okay. It's okay to have these big feelings because you're grieving and you're hurting and you're missing your wonderful, you know, guinea pig and stuff. And. And that's okay. It's okay to be in this space, right in the here and now. And I, unfortunately for my kids, they have me as a parent, so then they'll respond with, don't psychoanalyze me. And I think one of the biggest, like, humbling moments for me was when, you know, I think, I can't remember what I said, but I was saying to my second eldest son, so I was really proud of you in this space. Like, you really held this space, and my daughter's sitting there. You really held this space. Such a psychologist thing to say. Oh, you're holding space. [00:42:43] Speaker A: Did he hold the space? [00:42:44] Speaker B: He definitely held that space. I said, I'm really proud of the growth that you held in that space. Yeah, but, yeah, as I was saying, it is. It's just kind of, I guess, you know, understanding that we're not always going to get it right, but if we're just trying. And if we're trying to show our kids that we are always to be that safe place to land and we believe them and that we're always going to back them 110%. But I guess it's also, you know, for parents of. Of bullies as well, like, understanding how that impacts them and how that impact, like, why their child is behaving the way that they are and how they can assist them to make better behavioral choices. That's a tricky space. That's a tricky space. Yeah. [00:43:31] Speaker A: You're dealing with potentially, it's something that they. They're learning that at home. They're learning that. How do you get into. And some parents want their kids to be like that. Yeah, I want you to be this way. That's good. Be strong. Yeah, strong. That's. That's making strong is going up and finding the bigger guy. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:54] Speaker B: But also, like, if, you know, dad's getting his needs met by yelling at the postman, like, what's that modeling? That is modeling that I get my needs met by being that aggressive person. And unfortunately, we do see that in young males because young males need to understand what masculinity is and what it means to be a man. And if that has been kind of implied, that masculinity is supposed to be like, I'm a big, tough man, and I need to be that protector, and I need to be that provider, and I need to be, you know, this. This big, tough ogre of a person. Yes, there is that part of being a man, but it's also like, you know, how do you solve problems? How do you resolve conflict? You know, it can't just be by yelling and screaming until someone backs down. Like, that's not. That's not healthy behavior. What we need to look at is, like, how you resolve, you know, big problems and, you know, still keep that. That pride and, you know, it's something I think that this younger generation. Oh, my goodness, Jace. Like, they have such access to information and they have this ability to have these big, courageous conversations, right. About what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman as well. And, yeah, I feel like they're really going to be the big breakers of a lot of intergenerational trauma, let's say. I think they're just wonderful. They're pretty cluey, our Gen zs. [00:45:32] Speaker A: And so you think that's because or partly because of that information availability, the. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Fact that you can't go on and. [00:45:41] Speaker A: Get those answers, the things that they need. And they're getting to a point, I'm guessing, and I'm guessing it's taken a few generations to understand how much B's is on the Internet and having that filter and having it explained or filtered by the older ones. [00:45:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:58] Speaker A: So here's how you critically think and. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and, like, just being. Being able to access that. I remember when we first got the computer in our family, and it came with, like, Microsoft in Cardinal, and it was like a digitized version of an encyclopedia, and we still had all the encyclopedias in a bookshelf. Right. But we could, like, access all of this information. And I was just thinking to myself, well, I think that's why I got into it. I was like, oh, my God, this machine has changed my life. But kids can do that with something that's in their pocket, you know? So they do have so much access to information. And I think the. The biggest question, like, the biggest reason why the younger generation is the way that they are is they do ask questions. They're very curious. You know, it's not like, I guess. I mean, it's probably older generations. So we're talking, like, Gen X and baby boomers and the silent generation. It's kind of like, well, this is what this looks like. Oh, why does it look like that? Cause it is. Don't ask too many questions. Like, yeah, this is what this looks like. Okay. You're kind of taught to be small and to not have a voice and to not, you know, ask too many questions because you don't want to upset anybody, you know? But Gen Z don't have that. They're just like, no, I don't care how many people are upset. I want to know why. I really want to know why we're in the situation. We are. I want to know why this works. I want to know. Yeah, it's a pretty. Pretty awesome thing. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I've got an inquisitive mind, so I like that for somebody who'll say something, and I'm like, like. [00:47:42] Speaker B: But why? [00:47:45] Speaker A: What is it? Why? Why makes you wise, right? [00:47:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you've got to ask. Curiosity is. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yeah, and some. Yeah. And I get asked a lot of interesting things by my clients, and I need to know the answers. I'm like, hey, look, I don't know the answer, but. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Google, it takes a big person to say, I don't know as well. I think that's a beautiful thing as well. Someone comes up to you and says, you know, why is the sky blue? And you're like, I really don't know that, but I will find out, and I will tell you next time. [00:48:17] Speaker A: And that's the thing. It's a learning. It's a win for everyone that way. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Now, getting into that, so we've looked at a bit of what's. What's happening, what happening from bullying. And we started looking at a bit about the bully themselves. Will get why, how. So? These are the bits that I edit out, but why do you add, I've got these bits. They're not. Like, I can see my voice patterns and it just goes word like, that's how my brain's thinking to ask this question. I don't know what I'm processing. Like, don't say anything silly. I say plenty of silly stuff. Okay, so what I'm asking is if looking at the. The bully themselves, say a parent of theirs or somebody that knows them, what's some nudges or some ways that we can impart some information on them to help them be less bully. [00:49:20] Speaker B: Like, that's a great one because, like, I guess when I see clients in the clinic, you know, that have experienced bullying, I will obviously hold that space and validate them and say, you know, what you're experiencing is not okay. However, we can't be in control of the behavior of others. Right? Like, I can sit here and I can say, yeah, that's not right. That's not okay. But I'm not going to change your experience because I'm not actually talking to the bully. I'm not talking to the person who's actually causing you to feel the way that you're feeling. And that's really, really difficult. And, I mean, even we see that with, I guess, you know, toxic family environments and things like that, as well as, like, having those conversations with young people where, like, you know, mum and dad aren't meeting some need in their life. And it's like, well, you know, how are we going to have those conversations? But with bullying, you can't just go up to the bully and go, mate, why? Why are you acting like a silly goose? Like, that's not, that's not going to work at all. So I guess it's those, those moments in time. And I think there's been a really big highlight of that is, like, calling out bad behavior as you see it. And there's those ads about, I guess, those toxic masculinity ads about, like, when you recognize someone, you know, behaving badly, going, hey, mate, that's not it. Like, that's not okay. You know, and, like, being courageous enough to speak out. And I always have those, I guess those conversations with my children. I'm like, if you see or hear or smell or feel bullying happening around you, how would you respond? And, you know, I think my kids do reflect on that space and go, you know, would I speak up would I feel brave enough to speak up? Because that. That opens you up to vulnerability, that opens you up to bullying as well. But we do need to make that the norm, Jace. We do need to make that I can't behave in a bullying manner because there's always going to be that person that's going to keep me accountable for my behaviors. So if we kind of shift that dynamic in our society where people are actually being held accountable for their behaviors, we will see bullies kind of get their needs met in other ways, and it's not going to be through hurting others. But, yeah, we're a long way. We're a long way off that. So I guess the conversations that you would have is having those conversations with your kids. Like, you know, what would you do if, like, little Billy down the street was picking on someone, like, and you saw that and you knew that it wasn't okay, would you feel like, you know, would you feel courageous to speak up and go, yeah, mate, that's not it. And if nothing, why not? Like, what, what would you need to kind of be courageous? Because you know that that behavior is not okay. But, yeah, I guess with, again, like, when we're talking about behaviors, it's like, how do we teach a bully not to be a bully? Like, this is an educational moment. They're trying to get a need met. They're doing it in a. In a bad way. How do we get their need met? How do we make them feel safe and secure and feel like they're in control of their environment without bullying? So what's that going to look like? So, yeah, it's very, again, a very multifaceted kind of question there, but it is really about, you know, holding people to account with their behaviors. Like, there needs to be accountability. And if. I guess that's been modelled, like, from top down as well. Like, you know, if there is a behavior in the household where, you know, the head of the household is not taking accountability for their behavior, that's going to be pretty hard for a child to understand that, you know, we can't. We can't act like silly gooses. Like, there's going to be someone who's going to be like, that's not okay. That's really not okay behavior. Yeah. [00:53:29] Speaker A: And that. That's. That's where the strength is. The strength is standing up to the dragon, isn't it? Not being the dragon. [00:53:35] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. But the other, the other, I guess the side of the coin as well is. I hate using the term. We have to build resilience within our young people, because resilience, I guess, is a trauma based response in itself. But, you know, when we say to people who. I don't like to use the term victim, so I'm going to say people who have experienced bullying, if they've experienced bullying, you know, like, how do we teach them that this isn't about them. This isn't. This isn't a behavior. It's not the way that you look, it's not the way that you sound, it's not the way that you exist within the world. Okay? This is a problem with the bully. The bully is just hurting so much that they want to hurt other people, and that's really not okay. So when we talk about resilience, we're talking about that level of self reflection where if they're being bullied, you can turn around and go, I actually feel so much sadness and pity for you because, like, why would you be behaving that way if there's. If you were okay inside of that. That little body of yours? [00:54:44] Speaker A: I can just imagine them, like, what? What, I'm being mean to you? What, you pity me? [00:54:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of kill them with kindness? Kind of, yeah. Because it's, it's that space of, like, I think there's, like, a lot of YouTube videos about it when, like, someone's bullying going, ha, that's a good one. Oh, yeah, you're right. I do have a weird haircut. Oh, yeah. No, good. Good feedback. I'll take that in, like, and just kind of disarming that, you know, that narrative. And then they kind of go, but what the bloody hell? I'm not, I'm not getting the reaction that I'm expecting from you. You know, I'm not having that. And I. I used to work at front of house for a, like, a comic con. And I used to say to people, if, like, you had a attendee that was acting a bit aggressive, you know, like, the first thing you do is just don't engage and just put your hands up. And then if you see someone engaging with someone and they've got their hand up, I want you to go over to that person. I want you to put your hand up. So there's, like, ten people in front of this aggressive person with their hand up. And then the aggressive person is going to be like, what are you doing? What are you doing standing around with your hand up? That's weird. And then they're just going to de escalate and go away. So it kind of disarms that. Like, why why. Why was I angry again? And then, you know, I can come in and have that conversation with them about, you know, what. What's the matter? Why you. Why you cranky? Oh, you didn't get to see. Didn't get to see a dungeons and dragons panel. I apologize for that. You know, so, like, just kind of. Yeah. Disarming that, because it. It really is. The bully is looking for that reaction. You know, it's. It's. Bullies kind of feel comfort. Unfortunately, in chaos, bullies feel comfort within conflict, you know, because I guess that's how their world around them looks. You know, if you've. You've been in a space of abuse, and we find this a lot with people who have experienced domestic violence or domestic abuse, and they're in that relationship, they leave that relationship and go into another relationship. And I said, what would it be like if you were in a relationship and, you know, your partner came home and rubbed your feet every night and said, how was work, love? Oh, my goodness. That Sharon from accounts sounds like a horrible. Tell me more about Sharon. You know, oh, I made your dinner, by the way, and I'm just really interested. You'd be like, what is going on? I do not understand this feeling. I do not get this at all. So there's an uncomfortability there. You know, you deserve that. You know, you deserve to be treated with respect and validation, but it can feel uncomfortable if you've never been exposed to that. So if a bully is sitting there in a space expecting you to be combative and confrontive and you're not, then that's going to feel uncomfortable for them and going, yeah, you're not the one. I'm just going to move on with my life. Yeah. I think, once again, we've gone off on a team. [00:57:56] Speaker A: That's right. So. And from that, so looking at somebody with neurodiverse, intellectual delays thing, things like who, like giving this concept to. They might be able to get the concept, but being able to apply that concept. [00:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:16] Speaker A: Because in that moment of the bullying, it's emotion, and that is emotion driven and nothing else that they're doing this. This is how I feeling, and this is how I'm reacting. [00:58:26] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:58:27] Speaker A: And then because the emotion is loud, they're the one that gets singled out. They're the one that gets in trouble. [00:58:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:36] Speaker A: And then there's more emotion, and then they get into more trouble because they've directed that emotion potentially at the teacher or whatever. [00:58:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:58:46] Speaker A: Whereas taking that step back, looking at the whole scenario, they weren't the architect of this problem. Yes, that was the bully, but the bullies. And I think that's what it sounds like to me, anecdotally, that sort of sounds like to me, that is a lot of what's happening, especially with this. In this realm of people with disabilities. Like, everybody's plotting off all the disability kids acting up again. It's like, no, the guy's poking him in the ribs. [00:59:18] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Reactive trauma is very real. And reactive trauma can look exactly how you were saying, Jace. Like, it is very reactive. And all they're doing is trying to survive in that moment. So if we have neurodiversity, if we have intellectual impairment, if we have some cognitive delay, you know, that's going to feel so much more aggressive when they are being bullied and their responses and their behaviors can look so much better, bigger. And I guess it's, again, falling back on creating safe spaces for neurodiverse. And, you know, intellectually disabled or cognitively disabled people is understanding why they behave the way that they do. And I think we can take an even bigger step back, Jace, is that there is a statistic out there that nine out of ten people, people with a disability, do experience abuse. And that is such a horrible statistic. But it is because of that level of vulnerability. You know, an abuser isn't going to abuse against someone who can fight back. And that's the horrible thing about that, right? So it's about really creating those trauma informed spaces within schools, within tafes, within universities, within places of learning, within the home. You know, to state this is. I know that this is what this response is going to be. I know that little Billy has these big, big emotional outbursts when he's being bullied. So we know that we can predict that, but we still need to understand why that behavior has happened. We need to think a step back. You know, and unfortunately, and I can say this because I am married to a teacher, they are very reactive to behavior. Okay? And I'm the one who's sitting there over the dinner table when we're having our curry to go, well, why do you think that that child behaved the way that they did? And, you know, my husband sitting there. God, because he's a shit. No, because he always behaves like that. I'm like, there's always a why. Like, we need to be curious about the why. You know, kids don't just come to school just to be rat bags. They're just existing the best way they know how. And if that's by displaying defiance. If that's by displaying big behaviors, we need to understand what's going to make them feel safer so they don't have to feel like they need to behave in that way. So it's really, really up to fabulous faculty or, you know, administrative staff of schools or tafes or universities or whatever that looks like, to be really curious about the why and, and having that, that bigger in depth, I guess, you know, look at. Look at behaviors, because you're absolutely right. If the. The behavior of the person who's experiencing bullying is bigger than the behavior from the bully. And bullies can be very clandestine and they can be really covert, you know, so they could be. They could be niggling, and then, as you said, the outburst happens, and then it's, you know, the person experiencing that is the bad guy. Right. So it's about having those conversations. I really. I really do believe deep down in my heart, if we know better, we do better. You know, we can always be better if we just know how. So, you know, having those really big conversations with the people who, who can make a difference and that's. That's usually teachers is like, yeah, we. We need to be understanding what's behind behavior rather than punitive measures toward behavior. [01:03:06] Speaker A: And is there. Are there. Are there rules? I mean, there's rules in the school. Clearly, there's rules in the school. I got in trouble for a lot of them. There's rules in the school, but, I mean, rules in the schools for teachers. So I imagine as a teacher, they've got 30 kids that they've got to be looking after if it's just their class and they've got, it's like, okay, cool. 90% of these guys are doing exactly what I want. That one's not. I'm going to stop so that everybody else stays. Stops rocking the boat. It does make sense. I can understand where a teacher would go, okay, big noise. Boom, shush. [01:03:43] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:03:44] Speaker A: Noise. But in this situation, when, you know, little bully boy is walking past and, as you said, clandestinely giving them a tap on the back of the noggin, it's not visible. It's not, you know, they do that ten times a day, and all of a sudden, there's out of nowhere, an explosion from this kid that's. That sucked it up and dealt with it nine times. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [01:04:09] Speaker A: No, I've had enough. And rightly, yeah. I mean, and how else do they deal with it? Do they. Do they become a bully and a bully, do they become a dobber? And they go and dob the men, which is against the schoolyard rules, and then open themselves up to bullying from more people, is that goes like, so are there, are there rules for the teachers to. Is there a structure for the teachers to go, okay, you know, every time this happens, I'm writing it down. I've got a diary of this child. A keeps on acting up in class. He's saying it's because someone's being mean to him. Yeah, this has happened ten times. Like, maybe it's because maybe there's someone. [01:04:55] Speaker B: Being mean to him. Exactly. And, like, I guess it goes a long way when a teacher, I think we always remember that teacher that, like, really, really invested, you know, so, like, if that teachers in that space and they're recognizing this behavior and, and this behavior is happening, you know, probably not consistently, but enough. Right. To be that one person, to be that one person that shows that care and that kindness and go, mate, can you tell me what's going on for you? Can you tell me why we're seeing this? You know, and that that not only shows the person who's experiencing bullying that, you know, they're believed and, you know, they have that validation because that's really important in itself because a lot of time people are not believed. And I always come from a framework as we believe children and we believe the story that they're trying to tell. Sometimes that story can look a bit confusing, but they're still trying to tell you something. They're still trying to tell you a story. Story. But it also shows that you gave enough time to that young person to be like, I actually care about what your experience is, and that's such a valuable thing to show. I think we've been so caught up as a society to try and build our kids tough, you know, like, oh, it's a big, bad world out there. Like, got a tough enough the kids because, you know, they're, they're going to get out there and they're going to have a boss and their boss is just going to be horrible for no reason and they're going to, like, have this and have that happen in society. But I really, I really don't believe that that framework. I really don't believe that, you know, that lens, because we shouldn't teach kids that people are inherently bad. If we've got a bully for a boss or we've got a bully for this, it's not about them being resilient. It's about looking at, well, that boss isn't behaving okay. And there needs to be accountability for that and there needs to be a process where that's dealt with. You know, why is it that, that I guess people just have to kind of accept bad behavior. We should never be in a situation where we just accept it and go, ah, well, that's Charlie, you know, Charlie, a bit gruff and rough around the edges. No, Charlie needs to be better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:07:22] Speaker A: So take, take away then for teachers, there would be same. Same as parents. Be on side, listen, be on side. [01:07:30] Speaker B: And just take that time, take that. Take that space to be curious because as I said, you know, kids are trying to tell their story. And I guess, I mean, the big difference between my job and my husband's job is that he's dealing with 30 students and I'm dealing one on one with someone, you know? So I have the time. I have the time to invest and go, tell me your story. I want to know you. I want to know your whole life, you know, unfortunately, as you said, teachers don't have that time, you know? But if you are seeing something time and time and time again that is disruptive, that is defiant, that is a little left of center, if you're seeing someone withdraw, if you're seeing a student, you know, yeah. Behaving in a manner that piques your curiosity, be curious, really talk to that young person and go, why? And sometimes a young person isn't going to be able to articulate themselves, and that's okay, too. But at least you've demonstrated that you care, because we're all one caring person in our lives, of being well, of being better. So. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I suppose in that moment of. Of that happening, too, if you're listening and caring and they're still in the emotion, they're not going to be able to explain what it is. [01:08:56] Speaker B: 100%. I love to give the demonstration of, like, when we're in a trauma based response is that this beautiful part of our brain, like the smart part of our brain, our prefrontal cortex, is like, boop. Like, it completely disengages. Like I talk about survival based responses is like, when we're in a war, we don't need to know what two plus two is. Like, that's not relevant. We just need to survive. We need to know the actions that we need to do to survive this. We need to survive this. Our mates need to survive this. This is the behavior we're going to do. Okay? And you see that survival response, response in a lot of children, in a lot of adults and a lot of adolescents, right, about why they have to survive, like why they're behaving in a survival based response, right. And that's not cohesive to academia either. So if you've got a kid in your classroom that is in survival mode, they're not going to, they're not going to be in a position to learn anyway. So if you're taking the time to find out why they're responding the way that they are, this is going to start to reengage and that's going to attach again, and then they're going to be in a space to retain information into a crease in their academic learning anyway. So it really does stem. Like, behavior has so much response to everything in our lives, and it makes me curious to why teachers don't learn more about child brain development. But that's a whole other podcast. But, yeah, I mean, you're going to have better academic results if you, if you're just thinking like that. If you're just thinking about, you know, those, those tick boxes, your kids are going to respond better if you show them that you understand and you understand why they're behaving the way that they are. [01:10:45] Speaker A: Um, yeah, I like that, that, that worked for my brain where I just. [01:10:50] Speaker B: Like, yes, I just, I do it a lot with kids who are in the child protection space. And obviously that's been my bread and butter for a really long time. And when you can demonstrate that to them, like, they'll, they'll come to you and they're like, Lucy, I'm going, I'm flipping. Like, you know, so they can understand why they behave the way that they do, too. You know, it gives them such validation. We don't ever justify bad behavior. But I always say to people, I get it. I get why you're behaving the way that you are, but that's not okay. We are going to have to find a different way for you to get your needs met here. You are going to have to find a different behavior for me to respond in the way that you're wanting me to respond right now. But kids who grow up in spaces of unsafety, they don't know any other way. So we come back to, we need to teach kids, this is a teachable moment, this is an educatable moment, how we best behave, because sometimes they don't have that, they don't have that modeling, they don't have that role modeling at home. So, yeah, yeah. [01:11:58] Speaker A: Okay. Um, so that best way to get back there, get where everything's working, so that they can learn, grow, and move, move forward is straight back. And it's always that being on site. Okay, here, you've got a place. Tell me what you need. What do you need? [01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I also have another great analogy for this, and I think I've over worn this analogy quite a lot. But I always say. Okay, jace, all right, I talk about trauma based responses as you're going to work, okay? You have your wheat bicks, all right? You probably have your protein, because you're a fit person, and you're like, you know what? Today, I'm not going to go. Not gonna go to work. I'm actually gonna go to this house that I know is haunted. Okay, because. [01:12:46] Speaker A: Sounds like me. [01:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly like the day. The day's young, right? So you go to this haunted house. Creaky floorboards, there's spider webs in the corners. Like, what was that? I think I heard something. Oh, my God, this is, like, terrifying. You know what that feels like in your heart? You know that your heart's racing, your breath, slay bird. Your hands are sweating. All right, all right. Okay, so we're there, but that's not enough for you, Jace, because you're a thrill seeker. You're gonna watch a scary movie in the haunted house. Okay? So you. So you're watching that scary movie. So our anxiety is escalating here, okay? But then your friends find out that you're in this haunted house, Jason. They think that's whole hilarious. I know what they're gonna do. They're gonna come to that haunted house, and they are gonna bang on the windows and doors. All right, what do you do, Jase? What do you do in that moment of banging on the windows and doors? [01:13:48] Speaker A: I'm gonna get up and look at the doors. There's only gonna be a ghost there, which is really cool and probably a bit freaky. Or are we going to find out what the problem is? [01:14:03] Speaker B: Okay, so you're. What I'm hearing is you're a very chill person. It takes a lot for you to get to outburst phase. So what would normally happen, Jace? [01:14:13] Speaker A: Did I break this story? Sorry, I just see a ghost. [01:14:18] Speaker B: I know you're like, maybe there's a ghost there, and I want to see them. I want to be their friend. So usually people go outside and they punched a of their friends in the face, or they run away, never to be seen again, or they freeze. So that's what we're talking about. With a trauma based response, our body goes into shutdown. So, smart. Part of the brain shuts down. This part of the brain's like, all right, Jace, this is what you need to do to survive. We're running away. We're fighting the threat, or we're freezing. Being that fawn in, like, the lion's mouth, just going, oh, my God, just get it over with. If I'm gonna die, I'm just gonna die peacefully, you know? So when we talk about that escalation, when we're talking about haunted house, scary movie, banging on the windows and doors, we talk about how we kind of escalate, like, de escalate those feelings and those sensations within the body, and that's going to cause this reconnection to happen. So we do that in several ways of, like, you know, I found that with young people that. That are quite escalated. Like, just having that. That safe place, like, you know, having that time away from the threat, being held, having something heavy over top of them, you know, in that moment, they're not going to be able to. To figure this out for themselves. They really do need to have someone co regulate their emotions with them, and we drain off those big emotions and then they come back down to base. But unfortunately, some people are waking up already in the haunted house, but there's no baseline here. They're already escalated. So it's not going to take much to get to banging on the windows and doors for them. Okay, so you see these big outbursts, and you're like, holy crap, where did that come from? Because you're not playing on an even playing field. They're already hypervigilant. They're already anxious. They're already preparing for the next wall, and the brain's already starting to disengage and go, no, we need to fight our way out of this. We need to run away, or we need to respond in a survival way. And we do find that a lot, I guess, with post traumatic stress disorder is we're teaching people to fight those battles, right? And then wonder, when the threat is no longer there, why people aren't responding. Like, the threat is no longer there. Because the brain's going to trick us. They're going to be like, no, we have to prepare for the next battle. We have to prepare for the next war, because that keeps us safe. That's going to keep us safe, is to be hyper vigilant all the time. And we're finding that a lot with our young people is they're so anxious about what could be. And if they're experiencing bullying, the school isn't a safe place for them. They're re entering the battlefield, so they're having to prepare for that fight. Right. And sometimes when we are in a space of, you know, that fight or flight, we don't make good decisions. We're just purely surviving. But that's for the bully as well. They're not making good decisions either. They're just surviving. They're fighting off a perceived threat, so. Yeah, but it was very cool that you wanted to meet a ghost. That was also a good story. [01:17:41] Speaker A: Okay, that's. I'm gonna. This is gonna be. When I'm going back, as I go back and I edit this, I find the edit process is actually really good because I go over, over and over and over and over the same bits again. Yeah, this is going to be. This is going to be some interesting insights as I'm doing that. Thank you. [01:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker A: You know, there's things where you've got that concept and you're like, in the moment, you're like, I get that concept. [01:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:09] Speaker A: I listen to it again later on, my brain's more primed to understand it a bit more. And then the 28th time that I get to that editing part, I'm like, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I get that. [01:18:23] Speaker B: I feel like that's one of my key strengths, is breaking down very complex neuropsychology into biteable chunks. [01:18:33] Speaker A: But that's the thing that shows that you understand it. If you can chunk it down to the point that Jace can understand it, we're good. [01:18:43] Speaker B: That's my goal in life, is like, what would Jason understand? [01:18:48] Speaker A: There you go. They're happy to help. Happy to help. All right, so what are some of the key signs that a child might be experiencing bullying? [01:19:00] Speaker B: Oh, that is a really, really good one. Okay, so exactly what you were saying before about those. Those big emotional outbursts. It's also any change in behavior, whether that be positive, negative, negative, or indifferent. Okay, so we also find that a lot of people start to withdraw. A lot of people's. I guess your grades can start to slip. Academia can start to slip if they're not doing the things that they would normally do, that bring them joy or engage in things that they would normally do to, you know, to make themselves happy. So that could be, you know, engaging in a sporting team or, you know, changing friend groups and starting to isolate themselves or starting to sit by themselves, starting to be quieter in a classroom perspective and just, I guess, you know, their demeanour as well. Demeanor can change. They try and make themselves small. They try to make themselves conform within a space where they don't feel safe. And that's kind of the whole scene but not heard kind of scenario, I like to say with people who are trying to make themselves small and trying to make themselves conform is kind of like those mattresses that come in boxes and you're like, there's no way a mattress could fit in that box. That box is so small. Right. And then, like. But why is the mattress in the boxes in there? To conform to? Like, the most mattresses can be moved if they're the smallest, you know, more better size. Right? So we're in that box. We're conforming into this space, but that's not our purpose. We can't sleep on a box. We can only sleep on a mattress. Right. And this is my big thing with therapy, is with therapy, what I'm trying to do is remove that box. I'm trying to remove that box, and then I remove the clean wrap. And then you unfurl into the person that you were always meant to be. And you're always meant to be the mattress. You were born to be the mattress, right. You weren't born to be the box. So if you're seeing someone who is trying to conform into a space that you know is not them, that is a really big sign that there is something going on, even if it's not bullying, that there's still something going on that's worthy of curiosity. But the other thing as well is when we unfurl into the mattress, the mattress can't go back in the box. Jace, like, you know, we know too much now. We're there, so we kind of try and squish the edges in to kind of conform to our situation, so. But it should never be that way. We should always be our true, authentic self. Right. And I feel like, you know, society should be accepting of that as well, but that's a different story. But, yeah, like, just seeing someone changing in their behavior, and it can be very, like, tiny little behaviors. The other thing as well that you can see is a level of defiance or a level of, I guess, talking back and being disruptive. When we experienced bullying, as you said, you know, like, you could go in there and. And fight the biggest fight the biggest bully in the space, right? Or, like, stand up for yourself if you're making yourself big in a space, is also a big sign that there's something going on for you as well. You know, is like, you know, making that, I guess, kind of putting into the universe that you aren't someone to be messed with, that, you know, you do have that level of confidence. But we also see that as a fight response. So that's also, again, a survival response is like, being disruptive or being, you know, combative and things like that as well. That's showing. That would be showing me that something's not feeling right, that someone's not feeling safe. So. [01:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah, like, in a. So is that like practicing, like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna fight mum and dad with everything they say to me because I am in a safe space. If I can practice fighting them, then maybe I can. Or have I just taken that off the. Off the plank? [01:23:20] Speaker B: No, that's. No, that's a really, really good feedback. And I always say this to foster carers as well. If they've got, like, kids in their care, I always say to them, look, you're gonna cop the worst behavior. You're gonna cop the worst of it, right? Because they feel safe to do so. They feel safe to understand why. And that can look quite, quite confronting. Right. But do you think that they're gonna yell at their mum or dad the way that they're yelling at you? Of course not. They don't feel safe to do that. And I think that's where bullying really stems from. Right, is, you know, I don't. I don't feel seen or heard or. I can't kind of let those big emotions out because I can't yell at. At my bully. So now I need to start, you know, bullying other people. Right. So it's that. It's that kind of transference of behavior. And we see that as well with people. Yeah. Because bullies, nine times out of ten, are also being bullied. So it's that kind of chain of events. Right? [01:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I can see the cogs ticking. I like it. [01:24:34] Speaker A: That's why I love to, like, I get to pick the brains of people that know more, like. So in this instance here, this one, this. I've got clients, families, parents that I'm having this discussion with. So saying things. I've got filing system, filing cabinets open to put the stuff straight. And I'm like, I need to know that for them. [01:25:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:25:01] Speaker A: They need to know that bit. Oh, that's something I could probably use one day. Like, that's. That's the weird looks. I'm going all over the place. Um, but, yeah, no, this is. And hopefully. Hopefully any of the parents or the kids that are listening to this, that, um. [01:25:16] Speaker B: And the teachers and the teachers. [01:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's like, yeah. Okay, so how, how would you say that parents can create an open environment for the children to talk about bullying? [01:25:29] Speaker B: Oh, that is another really, really good question. Again, it's just creating those spaces where it's kind of like it'd be pulse checking, I guess. So I get, I'm going to use another analogy. So usually we find that, you know, when you turn two or three kids are trying to pulse check who are safe people and how they do that, Jace, is by having tantrums. So baby has tantrum in Woolworth because you haven't bought them the Kit Kat. Okay? So you're either going to respond in a few ways, you're either going to go, all right, come on. Hold on, I'll pick up. Come on. All right, that's enough. You're not getting your Kit Kat. But we're going to to co regulate our emotions. It's okay. I'm still that safe person for you. But we are going to leave woolworths without the Kit Kat. It's going to be okay. You're going to be alright. Or you can be that parent that's like, oh my God, everyone's watching. Like, oh, this is so embarrassing. Like, get up, get up. Get in the trolley now. Like, you know, so it's kind of those responses that, that the child is, is pulse checking. It's either you are that safe person or you are not that safe person. When we're creating a space for people when they're older, it's again those pulse checking moments when a kid comes to you and tells you a story about school and you're, you know, knee deep in mashed potato and you're trying to do two things at once and like everything all loud and crazy and overstimulating and a kid comes to you and goes, oh, you know, at school today, this, this kid, you know, I actually love these stories. My second eldest used to come in and tell me a story about this one particular student and he'd do something wacky every day. And one of the days he would come in and play like Fortnite theme music and like walk into a classroom and high five everyone. I'm like, ha ha, that is awesome. That kid is so cool. You know, like when kids come to you with these stories, it might be like, I don't give a crap about what little Billy's doing in fortnight and slapping fives. I don't know, like, can't you see I'm busy with the mashed potatoes. They're pulse checking you. They're pulse checking to see whether you're that person that they can go to. If they can't go to with the small stuff, how are they going to come to you with the bigger stuff? How are they going to know that you're actually going to care? So it's those moments of communication, you know, opening up those, those forms of communication. And even if you're at the table and you go, how was school today? And you get a, huh, at least you've showed I care. I care about what your day look like, you know, even if you're not ready to talk about it or if it's something, you know, I always do the whole, like, not like, what was your day like? I'm like, name two things awesome that happened today. Like, can you name two things that were awesome? You know, and they're like, ah, well, this happened. I'm like, okay, well, that's one that's good enough, you know, so, like, kind of giving them a bit more direction about what that looks like, but kind of opening those conversations, even if it just seems mundane and every day shows that, you know, you are that person that's going to be there when. When the rubber hits the road and it looks a bit tough, you know, so when the biggest stuff comes up, it might look like those pulse checking conversations because it's never usually the come home and go, oh, like this big, big thing is happening. So, yeah, teenagers will always try and, you know, adolescent will always try and pulse check that first. And if we, we have an environment where I guess, you know, there's some emotional avoidance or kind of like that, you know, avoid an attachment that might. That might look like kids taking a lot longer to come forward with that. So it's really recognizing that, like, am I creating a. A space of emotional safety here? And that could start with the parents is going, no, I can do better. I can do better in that space. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's. There. Was that what you just said? There was a do better jace moment in there for me and I'm like, here's a place to improve. That's. [01:30:09] Speaker B: You can always do better. When we know better, we do better. [01:30:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. [01:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:15] Speaker A: And. All right, so strategies, now, we have gone over this, a bit of this, but say, itemize list. Like, yeah, that's a good question. Strategies parents can use to support the child if they are being bullied. So what's like a checklist of like, okay, if I do this this, this and this. [01:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. First things first, we believe their experience and we validate that experience. That's not okay. That's not acceptable behavior. I can understand how that's impacted you. I am so sorry that this is happening to you. How do you feel? How's that made you feel? You know, what are we going to do next? What, what do you want to see moving forward? Sometimes kids don't know what that looks like. Okay. Okay. So if you don't know what that looks like, this is what I would like to see. I would like to see change and I would like to see behavioral change to make sure that this is a safe environment for you to turn to. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to have conversations with people that can assist with that behavioral change. So that's meetings with administrators of staff, you know, this sort of like teachers, whatever, guidance counselors, bring the guido into it. It's always a good thing. Okay. And have those conversations. This has been my child's experience. And what are we going to do moving forward to make sure my child feels safe coming to school and what are going to be, I guess, the ramifications for the behavior that's being displayed by the bully. Okay. Again, it's not all punitive. It can look like a learning experience for that child as well. Like, we're teaching that child to behave better. Always ask for restorative justice. I think restorative justice is a wonderful tool that all schools should be using if they don't know. Google is free, my friend. Google that and what that looks like. Okay. And really, really advocate for that space. But the thing is, is that we believe children when they come to us with their story. And I guess that also opens that door of like, okay, how do I say this? Sometimes kids need a need met and that story can look, look a little bit different. Okay. And I'll use an example of my own children because I'm sure they're going to listen to this podcast, aren't you, children? And be like, oh, mommy's so embarrassing. But my elder, we had a house that backed onto a park and he wanted to go to the park and I was like, look, I'm a little bit busy at the moment with work, but the park is literally right behind the house and I'll keep an eye on you. It's going to be okay. So he comes back crying probably about ten minutes later. And I said, oh, why are you upset? And I guess kids need to create that story, that narrative of what it looks like to justify why they feel the way that they do. And they said, he said, oh, there was two people down there. They were being really mean to me, and they were picking on me and they were calling me bad names. And I said, okay, well, I'm not seeing any people down there. But I said, you know, it is actually okay that when you went there by yourself, you felt scared or you felt lonely or you felt like mummy wasn't giving you the time that you needed in that space. And that's okay. That's okay to be upset about that. We don't have to kind of create this narrative that you think I need to hear to give you the response that you need right now. So kids, I guess, want a response, and sometimes they will inflate a story to get the response that they. They require if, like, little things haven't been kind of given. Right. But just creating, again, for parents to create that space is like, I will hear you. Big, small, fat, thin, you know, short, tall, whatever this looks like, I will hear you, I will listen to you, and I will validate you, and I understand why you feel the way that you do. Okay. And, um, I. Yeah. So I guess when we. When I say believe children, I say we need to believe that the emotion that they're feeling is real and they're not feeling safe, they're not feeling heard, they're not feeling understood, they're not feeling validated or they're feeling scared, whatever that looks like. And we believe them, and we want to make changes to make sure that they don't feel that way moving forward. [01:34:53] Speaker A: Okay. And extent. And so those. Those stories, they're not lies. They're the expressions of the feeling to. [01:35:02] Speaker B: Get a need met. Exactly. And I think when. When we talk about trauma, I always say to people, like, we have an experience. We have an experience that has caused us pain and hurt and sadness and trauma, and we have a feeling that should be associated with that. Okay. But when the trauma happens, we're not getting in the fetal position and crying. You know, that's not safe to do so in that moment. Okay, so we haven't had the emotion that's supposed to be linked to that because we're just surviving. So the. When people usually come to therapy, they're like, oh, you know, I've. I'm just breaking down and crying all the time and nothing's happened. Like, I don't understand why I feel the way that I feel, and that's those residual feelings that they. They should have felt. There but they weren't safe to do so. But they're always going to come up, jace. They never just go away, you know? So those big feelings, I guess for adolescents and especially younger children, even people in their twenties and thirties, they don't understand why these feelings are happening. So maybe they will find a narrative that fits that. But it's always like, I believe that you feel this way. I believe that you're hurting right now, you know, but when. But when we're talking about the big stuff, when we're talking about abuse, when we're talking about assault, especially in a sexual nature, we believe children 100% up and down, left and right. We. We believe children when they tell that story. [01:36:33] Speaker A: Okay. [01:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:36] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. Positives. Something I like to help with is the positives building confidence and self esteem to help to handle bullying situations. [01:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:57] Speaker A: So with. I mean, for me, I'm like, yeah, for the narrative first, but what are say things that we can help them with? Is it going to be rote learning? Is it going to just be giving them reasons to feel confident? [01:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's definitely a whole part of this as well, is giving that empowerment, you know, because bullying happens within a space of vulnerability. If we're taking away that vulnerability, we are creating a space where bullying can't kind of infiltrate. Do you know what I mean? So giving that confidence, giving that empowerment, giving that. I guess that. That psycho education to understand that, you know, bullies are hurting as well, you know, but we're not going to accept that behavior. We do not deserve that behavior. And, you know, so it's. It is about building self confidence and also, you know, like when you are feeling threatened and this is why self defense is so important as well. Like, knowing that if you are in a situation where you have to defend yourself, that's a confidence in itself, right. You may live a lifetime never having to use those skills, but knowing that you can is very empowering as well. So, yeah, we definitely have to look at that with. With our young people as well. [01:38:18] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Now, I'm aware of the time. You've got a client in seven minutes. [01:38:24] Speaker B: I do. And they never message back, so they're probably sitting there going, ah, what are you doing? [01:38:28] Speaker A: Oh, no. All right, so I did have more questions, but that's fine. So we're going to need. I'll edit this little bit out. So do we want to get into getting some info on your business, how to connect with you and things like that, and then a bit of an outro because I guess you needed a couple of minutes to prepare for your client? [01:38:46] Speaker B: Oh no, that's fine. Yeah, well I just usually call them and shoot the shit, in all honesty, so. [01:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I see you adapt. I mean it's kind conversation, isn't it? I guess with what you're doing, you're adjusting to what they need at the time. [01:39:01] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [01:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah, well that's simple. All right, so thank you so much, Lucy, for joining in today. For any of our listeners, what are some good ways to get in contact with you? [01:39:20] Speaker B: So my website is www dot. Eucalyptherapy. All one word. So that's eucalypt eucalyptus. All right. Eucalyptherapy.com dot au. You can make all bookings online. We're on all the socials if you want to check us out and check out all of the good things that we do. We are located in Ashmole in the Gold Coast. [01:39:45] Speaker A: I will have links to this on the website, the podcast and on YouTube. So you will be able to see them if you, if you didn't catch that and any other takeaways, anything that you, any pearls of wisdom that you've got for anyone that's listening about bullying or about any, any pearls of wisdom. [01:40:06] Speaker B: Just really understanding that bullying is never okay, bullying is never a justifiable behavior, okay? And also understanding that this is not about you, my sweet little chestnut, it is about the bully and the bully hurting, okay? And it's so hard and it's so, you know, hurtful to be experiencing bullying. But, you know, we can get through this together. There are people there to support you, there are people who believe you. There are people who can validate you. And at the end of the day, the world is so much better with you in it than not. So please remember that. [01:40:50] Speaker A: Love it. Love it. So thank you. That's a good pearl. That's a good pearl. So well, that will bring us to the end of today's episode of vicarious insights. Learn with me and thank you so much Lucy, for joining us from Luke eucalypt therapy and sharing your value, insights and experiences. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode. And we're on all of the, all of the podcast places and YouTube and my website. The links will be below. Don't forget to leave us rating and review, comment comment ask questions, any questions for Lucy? Any questions for me? Anything you want to see in the future, please ask and we'll leave those details for you to contact. And remember vicarious insights. We're all about learning and growing together. So if you have any questions or topics you'd like to cover or guests you'd like to hear from, feel free to reach us to us on social media. And thank you for tuning in. We'll catch you in the next episode. Until then, keep learning, stay inspired, and let's continue to make a positive impact together. [01:41:59] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Jace. It's been wonderful. Lovely. [01:42:03] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:42:04] Speaker B: That. [01:42:04] Speaker A: I've really enjoyed it. I've got some. Some actionable information there, too. Thank you so much. [01:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you do need any more information, like, we can tee up another time, but I think I've given you a lot. [01:42:18] Speaker A: And I'm looking at. I was looking at the time and I'm like, I just asked her to come back and do a part two. [01:42:22] Speaker B: But I look, depending on what the questions are, I feel like maybe a part two might be worrying, but I'm always happy to come back. [01:42:31] Speaker A: Like, yeah, this might actually be a part two because listening to how you. Now, this might be different when I get into the editing, but I'm not hearing many ums and ahs. So without taking out any of the actual stuff, which, which is. Which is new to me, but that's cool, you know, you stuff. [01:42:52] Speaker B: I'm pretty good. Like, I've kept my swears at bay. I'm from central Queensland, so that was really hard. [01:42:58] Speaker A: There was one. There was one shit. And I'm like, I'm not that worried about it, but apparently you've got to tick another box on YouTube if you're going to have. [01:43:10] Speaker B: That can be edited out. We can edit out or you can beep it, actually get beat. [01:43:15] Speaker A: I'll work out how to do that. [01:43:16] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that was awesome. And I was actually so nervous about this. Like, I was like, oh, my God, do I like, like, have to prepare or like, you know, write little things about bullying and stuff? And Scott, my husband, was sitting there going, ah, you know how to talk about bullying. Like, it's just gonna come out of you. And I'm like, oh, I don't know. So I've, like, literally got notes here about, like, behavior is a choice. [01:43:43] Speaker A: I prepare stuff and the amount of times that I've actually stuck to the script that I have, like, I had plan of a script that I had where my questions were fitting in the matrix of the greatest story ever told through, like, that whole. I'm like, yeah, this is gonna be great. It was a good idea. It was a good. But it's conversation and it's real. I like real, and people, when they're listening, I think it's more enjoyable to listen to because it's actually a real conversational insight. [01:44:16] Speaker B: I definitely, like, enjoy podcasts like that. I like more of a conversational style podcast and, like, seeing where it goes. You know, there's. I mean, this is just going to show my it background, but I listen to a podcast called Darknet Diaries and he talks to people who are like, you know, work in that kind of digital forensic space, talking about, like, weird and wacky things that have happened within. Within the world of it, and he has these amazing guests that you would never have anywhere else and, you know, they just kind of. Yeah, they just talk. They just talk about what that looked like for them and it's way cooler. I think that's what we're about. That's what we're about. [01:44:58] Speaker A: Have you really eaten that now? Probably partly why you're good in your industry. You're really easy to talk to, so. [01:45:03] Speaker B: Thank you. Yes. [01:45:06] Speaker A: Oh, knew it. I was here for a reason. [01:45:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And one day, jase, I am going to come to one of these catch ups. I've just been so, so insanely busy, so I just feel terrible. But I'd love to start networking with more ndis, especially in the NDIS space. Like, that's what I'm really, really passionate about and probably would have found some. [01:45:26] Speaker A: Good people there today, actually. Today was an intro. It was a small one. [01:45:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:30] Speaker A: Very conversational. I just said, look, instead of standing up and doing a elevator pitch, like, just. [01:45:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:45:38] Speaker A: We just chatted and the conversation was going across the room. I think there was eight or nine of us. [01:45:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:45:44] Speaker A: And it was. It was really. It was really good. Like, the. The rapport was really great. There was some awesome. Some guys that work with some pretty heavy duty needs clients. [01:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:45:55] Speaker A: A bit of their stuff and I'm just like, whoa. I'm like, yeah, you know. Yeah, there's some. There's. This is all learning for me. So the. [01:46:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I mean, the client that I've got now is actually, because I also do care a support as well. And it was so, it's a mum and son, but they're like, in rural New South Wales where there's just no services, so it's like all telehealth and stuff and. And the wee boy has quite significant ASD, but he is so engaging and he's so like. He's. He gets very hyper focused on things. So, like, our therapy can look like him talking about, like, different nuclear weaponry. And I'm like, oh, gosh, I know more about nuclear weaponry from you, like, than from the Internet, sir. You know, and, and it's, yeah, it's very interesting because, like, I genuinely believe from the bottom of my heart that, you know, therapy should be available to everyone. You know, it shouldn't be a rich person's game. And I know a lot of people in this space is like, you know, they charge the big dollar. Right? And I'm always about, yeah, I. It's the, the people from that low socioeconomic areas and, and people that have experienced quite significant trauma that's never going to get better if you're not providing really quality care in those spaces. So, yeah, I'm definitely known to give away, give away a lot of freebies, I guess, in that space. But I'm like, no, you're the one who needs me, not, um, I'll send. [01:47:34] Speaker A: You an email, like, asking for, like, a photo that I can share is your thumbnail and stuff. [01:47:39] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [01:47:40] Speaker A: Like this. So, hey, like, you know, the first ten people, whatever. Any, any offers or anything. [01:47:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:45] Speaker A: That might get you some, some people. Find some more people to help get leads, whatever, whatever ways you want to give it. [01:47:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:52] Speaker A: Then that's, that's all good. I was as you were saying that, and I'm like, oh, she thinks we're finished, but I think I'm going to use that as a sound bite. [01:48:02] Speaker B: It's still being recorded, isn't it? [01:48:06] Speaker A: No, that's all I want. I won't do that to you. She said yes. I'm giving out everything for free. I got so many likes for that post. [01:48:15] Speaker B: There's so many people that I'm like, if you get a, a mental health treatment plan, like, I will bulk bill. I'm probably one of the only people that still bulk bills, I think. But I'm like, no, it's where you bulk bill. Like, you're the people who actually need me. So, um, yeah, I'm not greedy in this space. I just really want to help. [01:48:31] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's, that's really nice. And then that can be the. They get those, what, five things and ten. [01:48:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:48:41] Speaker A: Because it's mental health. They get ten. [01:48:42] Speaker B: It's mental health. Yeah, yeah, I. So they get. [01:48:45] Speaker A: And that can make a difference or can make them go, hang on, this has made enough of a difference that I can budget for this somehow. [01:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it definitely. I'm definitely a long term kind of therapist. You know, I really do hold that space and it is a. It's a difficult thing to kind of stretch ten sessions over a calendar year, but we make it work. We can kind of. Yeah. See what that looks like and give game plans on. On what we can do moving forward and stuff. But it's really that, I guess those. Those big. The big fish, the people that can afford to pay, allow me the freedom to be able to help people that can't. So it kind of all just comes out in the wash, doesn't it? So. Yeah. [01:49:29] Speaker A: Swings and roundabouts, isn't it? [01:49:30] Speaker B: Swings and roundabouts indeed. Yeah. Definitely need more big fish. But I'm the same. Yeah. [01:49:41] Speaker A: But that's the thing. It's. It's. We. You've told me a story where you've come from so that you're in here for. Specifically to help. [01:49:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, the NDIS has been such a good thing in that because, you know that the people I'm seeing now are NDIS funded because otherwise they wouldn't be able to access anything, you know? So. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. But I better. Better get into that call. But thank you so much, Jason. Really appreciate your time. That was so much fun. [01:50:13] Speaker A: I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now you can tell your sister. Tell her to promote it. Make sure she promotes. I'll let you go. [01:50:25] Speaker B: Will do. Thanks, mate. [01:50:27] Speaker A: Have a good day. [01:50:28] Speaker B: Bye.